Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Haystack . I really can't agree with anything you have written there .

Cameron played it exactly right ?

He went there asking for nothing and got nothing .
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The number of people who want to leave the EU no matter what is quite small, but they make a lot of noise disproportionate to their number.
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How do you know that ? because every one i talk to wants to leave ,i'm not saying i am right because i may not be but your statement above is unfounded.

It is based on a long history of opinion polls over many years. The current appetite for leaving is based largely on false assumptions regarding immigration. There was an interesting statistic I saw yesterday. It was that 85% of immigrants do not claim any sort of benefit.

You may know people who want out at any price. I don't know even one. I do know some who are undecided, but most want to stay in. I will probably vote out.

Cameron had to play a middle sort of game to get anything from the EU.

Immigration is just one aspect, and it's not about the money.
2517

The land of €l Greco now threatening to pull the plug on the whole shooting match over migrants.


You couldn't make it up if you tried.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12164607/EU-referendum-eu-summit-david-cameron-brexit-live.html

That's the problem in trying to negotiate in the Tower of Babel. He might as well have borrowed Ed's stone, engraved his demands on the back and dumped it in the Espace Leopold, and said "when you sort that lot out, give me call".

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/comment/article-3451621/Neil-Woodford-lays-economics-Brexit.html

i am sorry to say that i do not think that DC will succeed in regaining any sort of sovereignty for uk, and therefore any concessions achieved will always be subject to eu parliament ratifying - or along those lines

confess that, with a heavy heart and grave misgivings, i am fast coming to the conclusion that i should vote "out"

I think both the EU and Briton like to stay in.

Daniel Hannan

@DanHannanMEP

Other EU leaders are openly laughing at the idea that the changes are other than cosmetic.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-negotiations-live-david-cameron-preparing-for-another-day-of-talks-with-donald-tusk-after-late-a6883231.html

With so much criticism of DC both home and abroad you have to wonder who else was involved, if anyone, in setting out the requests/pleadings/begging's that the UK sought.
2517

You only hear of the criticism as it makes news. There are plenty of people like me that think he is doing a good job. I doubt it will make a difference anyway as the vote will probably be to stay in

I wonder what will happen to UKIP, their supporters and all the Eurosceptics if we vote to stay in.

i also think DC is playing as good a hand as is possible given that he has but one trump card

He will fold it!

but you are going to CAST A VOTE to stay in i take it ....... or will you follow your usual pompous course and decide casting a vote at all is beneath you

I certainly will be voting out.

If in 1975 the people had been able to visualise what the EU was to become, I doubt they would have voted in favour of joining the common market.
2517

The vote in 1975 was not about joining, it was a referendum on continued membership as we were already in. We had joined in 1973.

EU referendum: the pros and cons of Britain leaving Europe
Feb 18, 2016
A vote on the UK's membership of the European Union could be held as early as this summer

The Conservative election victory earlier this year activated a manifesto pledge to hold an in/out referendum on Britain's membership of the EU by the end of 2017.

David Cameron promised to deliver the vote at a time when he was under pressure from Eurosceptic backbenchers within his own party – and when the Tories appeared to be losing votes to Ukip.

The Prime Minister has since embarked on a campaign to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the union ahead of the referendum.

He has vowed to campaign with his "heart and soul" to keep Britain inside a reformed EU if an agreement on these reforms is reached.

But a reluctance from within the EU for such changes – particularly those which require treaty change – could thwart Cameron's plans.

So what are the advantages and disadvantages of being a part of Europe? Would Britain be better off staying inside the club or going it alone?

The pros and cons of leaving the EU

Perhaps the greatest uncertainty associated with leaving the EU is that no country has ever done it before, so no one can predict the exact result. Nevertheless, many have tried.

Trade: One of the biggest advantages of the EU is free trade between member nations, making it easier and cheaper for British companies to export their goods to Europe. Some business leaders think the boost to income outweighs the billions of pounds in membership fees Britain would save if it left the EU. The UK also risks losing some of its negotiation power internationally by leaving the trading bloc, but it would be free to establish trade agreements with non-EU countries.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage believes Britain could follow the lead of Norway, which has access to the single market but is not bound by EU laws on areas such as agriculture, justice and home affairs. But others argue that an "amicable divorce" would not be possible. The Economist says Britain would still be subject to the politics and economics of Europe, but would no longer have a seat at the table to try to influence matters.

A study by the think-tank Open Europe, which wants to see the EU radically reformed, found that the worst-case "Brexit" scenario is that the UK economy loses 2.2 per cent of its total GDP by 2030. However, it says that GDP could rise by 1.6 per cent if the UK could negotiate a free trade deal with Europe and pursued "very ambitious deregulation".

Investment: The general view is that inward investment could slow in the lead up to the vote due to the uncertainty of the outcome and its consequences, following the precedent set ahead of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014. Longer term, there are diverging views: pro-Europeans reckon the UK's status as one of the world's biggest financial centres will come under threat if it is no longer a seen as a gateway to the EU for the likes of US banks, while Brexit campaigners argue London's unique appeal will not be diminished.

Barclays has put forward a different view, which will be seen as positive by those advocating a vote to leave. It reckons the departure of one of the union's most powerful economies would hit its finances and also boost populist anti-EU movements in other countries, the Daily Telegraph says. This would open a "Pandora's box" that could lead to the "collapse of the European project".

In this event, the UK could be seen as a safe haven from those risks, attracting investors, boosting the pound and reducing the risk that Scotland would "leave the relative safety of the UK for an increasingly uncertain EU".

Jobs: Free movement of people across the EU opens up job opportunities for UK workers willing to travel and makes it relatively easy for UK companies to employ workers from other EU countries. Ukip says this prevents the UK "managing its own borders". But, writing for the LSE, Professor Adrian Favell says limiting this freedom would deter the "brightest and the best" of the continent from coming to Britain, create complex new immigration controls and reduce the pool of candidates employers can choose from.

Regulations: Eurosceptics argue that the vast majority of small and medium sized firms do not trade with the EU but are restricted by a huge regulatory burden imposed from abroad. However, others warn that millions of jobs could be lost if global manufacturers, such as car makers, move to lower-cost EU countries, while British farmers would lose billions in EU subsidies.

Influence: Britain may lose some of its military influence – many believe that America would consider Britain to be a less useful ally if it was detached from Europe.

On the plus side, The Economist says Britain would also be able to claim back its territorial fishing waters, scrap caps on limits to the number of hours people can work per week, free itself from the EU's renewable energy drive and create a freer economic market. This would turn London into a "freewheeling hub for emerging-market finance – a sort of Singapore on steroids", it says.

But it concludes that the most likely outcome is that Britain would find itself "as a scratchy outsider with somewhat limited access to the single market, almost no influence and few friends. And one certainty: that having once departed, it would be all but impossible to get back in again."

EU referendum: the big questions for Britain
When will the EU referendum be held?

The date is not yet known, although Cameron has committed to holding the vote before the end of 2017. Some suggest the referendum could be called as early as June, if the Prime Minister is able to secure the reforms he is seeking from Brussels.

What will the referendum ask?

The Tories recommended that the question be: "Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union?" However, the government bowed to pressure from the Electoral Commission after concerns that the phrasing of the question might be seen as biased towards those campaigning to remain a part of the union. The wording has since been changed to:

Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?

Who can vote in the EU referendum?

Eligibility will be based on the criteria for voting in a general election, which means citizens of most EU countries (who can vote in local and European elections in Britain) will not be allowed to take part. Anyone over the age of 18 who falls into one of the following groups can cast a vote:

British citizens resident in the UK
British citizens resident overseas for less than 15 years
Citizens of Ireland, Malta and Cyprus resident in the UK
Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK
Commonwealth citizens resident in Gibraltar

However, citizens of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, which are not in the EU, will not take part. Members of the House of Lords will be allowed to vote, despite being ineligible to cast a ballot at general elections.

What would happen if the vote was held tomorrow?

The latest polls show public opinion over Britain's future in Europe remains on a knife-edge. An online survey from ICM says 43 per cent want to remain and 39 per cent would opt to leave, while Ipsos Mori's latest poll showed 54 per cent would vote In and 36 per cent Out.
Edit: Other very recent polls are showing almost the entire opposite type of result

"There's little movement in the public's views towards Europe but still time for that to change," said Gideon Skinner, the head of political research at Ipsos Mori.

Who is campaigning on either side?

Several 'In' and 'Out' groups have launched in recent weeks and both sides have already begun campaigning hard. The main campaign trying to convince voters that the UK should remain in the EU is Britain Stronger in Europe led by the Tory peer and former M&S boss Lord Stuart Rose.

On the Eurosceptic side, Vote Leave – which has the backing of some big-name business leaders – is confident it will beat Nigel Farage's Leave.EU to become the official group campaigning for a Brexit. The group appointed as the official campaign on either side will have the additional benefits of higher spending limits, television broadcasts and a grant.

What does British business say?

Most business leaders are thought to be strongly in favour of staying in the EU, but all the early running has been made by a business-focused anti-EU group. Business for Britain is led by the former chief executive of the right-leaning think-tank, the Taxpayers' Alliance, and funded by the Daily Telegraph. Its supporters include the director general of the Institute of Economic Affairs, Mark Littlewood, and the chief executive of fund management business Newton, Helena Morrissey CBE, John Caudwell, founder of Phones4u, Peter Goldstein, co-founder of Superdrug, Sir Stuart Rose, former chairman of Marks and Spencer, and Next chief executive Lord Wolfson.
What about the rest of the business community?

As a whole, entrepreneurs and business owners in Britain broadly remain in favour of remaining a member - and their enthusiasm may be growing. According to the Financial Times a survey of 3,800 businesses last year found 63 per cent believe that leaving the EU would have a negative impact for Britain, a rise of 4 percentage points since the end of 2014. The sentiment seems to be reciprocated: of 2,600 senior executives in 36 countries across Europe in February, nearly two-thirds of those in the eurozone said a British exit from the EU would have a negative impact on the European economy.

thanks EL
that was a good and balanced read
inevitably, an awful lot of unknowns whichever way the vote goes