This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

barwoni - 23 Aug 2006 13:47 - 683 of 685
Maybe you should learn to spell, I see english is not your first lanquage

those who live in glass houses.................................
LMAO.
:-))))))

bawoani said:
Well, heres the truth. The religion of Islam makes it necessary for young mothers to have to empty baby bottles at the security gates of airports, because the Muslim parents of a 6-month-old infant (living on the welfare dime in Britain, no less) wanted to offer their entire family as a sacrifice to Allah and kill as many infidel airline passengers as possible in the process.



Right. i'll have to stop my kids going to the kindergarden.
there's at least 3 kids in there that look a bit dark.
They've all got milk bottles strapped to their chests......... OH MY GOD..... I could swear one of them was whispering to the other ...........AAAAGGGGHHHHHHHH were all gonna die!!!!!!!!!

reminds me of the joke:

At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.
At a morning press conference, Attorney general John Ashcroft said he believes the man is a member of the notorious al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction.

"Al-gebra is a fearsome cult,", Ashcroft said. "They desire average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like "x" and "y" and refer to themselves as "unknowns", but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country.

Ya see. Debate is nigh on impossible.
The reason being that one may consider either side of the argument an extremist viewpoint. While those seeking to blame the Islamic faith for everything are labelled as racist and extreme, the current epidemic of terrorism is linked directly to Islamic fundamentalists, who by their nature are extreme.
Many have argued, eloquently and legitimately, that we would be well served to understand the reasons for the Muslim terror, for only then can we eradicate it. They argue that name-calling, insulting and marginalizing will only make them more extreme and violent. I understand, though not necessarily agree with this view.
What I fail to understand is why the same argument is shunned by them when we discuss "racist" attitudes. Surely the likes of the NF are no more than a group wishing to terrorise another group, and yet the people who argue for moderation and a listening and understanding brief are the same ones who will very happily insult and marginalize the NF or anyone else displaying any reactions they consider racist. Racism applies just as much to the skinhead marching through Bolton with a placard threatening Asians as it does to an Asian in London threatening death to infidels, or an Asian targetting a bomb on a plane because it contains mainly white Americans and british.
Alan

Whilst I agree whole-hearedly with what you are saying. You cannot take the moral highground like bawoani has and then hurl abuse and not be expected to be shot down or shown to be an insecure xenophobic cock.
An impasse may have been reached.The majority are being sidelined by the minority and the gulf is expanding.
Is their a way back?
I'll happily talk about anything to anyone. I would expect no less of another.
I have'nt labelled any particular group as evil or 'different' or 'inflexible'.
As always it is individuals- i.e .the minority that are fucking it up for the majority , who just want an easy life.

If we allow extremists to influence the views of the majority, we are truly lost.

The Real 2006
'Iraq Body Count'

Iraqi civilians killed this year by Islamic Terrorists
7,810

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans
59*

Well for what its worth, WD, the moderate majority need to take a stance of either sideling both sides of the argument or engaging both sides. While it goes on that extreme Muslims have a voice and are encouraged to be vocal, and right wing extremists are ignored and insulted, then the muslim side will take the view that terror gets them what they want while right wing extremists will follow the lead of wreaking havoc until their demands are met.
personally I would sideline both, but as that would lead to claims that the policy was aimed at a religion (Islam), I would be labelled a racist for seeking a path of peace, when the truth is that I don't care which God you choose to worship, or how, but if that worship is attracting radicals, intent on the destruction of another way of life, then it must be stopped. We have no problem banning political marches, and meetings that we believe are inciting violence.
Alan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Real Iraq Body Count
8/18/06 | Larry Schweikart

How many Americans have been killed in Iraq? The media is quick to provide a number, currently at just over 2,500, and, for what its worth, some 500 of those have been non-combat fatalities (i.e., accidents). Left-wing web sites, such as the Iraq Body Count, (www.iraqbodycount.net), claim absurd numbers of up to 44,000 civilians killed in Iraq.

One number is never reported. No one even raises it in a question: how many of the enemy have been killed since the Iraq conflict began? One might find the complete absence of this number in any discussion of the war a tad curious, since, when one side runs out of fighters, it loses. Yet the mainstream media has been reluctant to even broach this issue, let alone try to answer it. Why? An obvious answer is that if Americans knew what havoc our excellent military is wreaking on these terrorists, support for the war would be substantially higher than it already is. The left-oriented media has staged an obvious morale war on Americans, and to some degree it has succeeded; and it has been made worse by the refusal of the Bush Administration (thanks to the Vietnam experience) to tout any enemy casualties as indicators of progress, when in fact they are, in most cases, the very best indicators.

My early estimates, based on back-of-the-envelope additions extracted from combat accounts since the war began, put the number of terrorists/insurgents killed at 20,000 since 2003. I was lowway low.

It takes some digging, but slowly the evidence is leaking out. (Special thanks to the anonymous S for some numbers). The sources are USA Today, July 26, 2006, and the New York Times of June 7. Both sources cite the statistic of 3,149 civilians killed in June 2006. This is consistent with UN reports of 100 civilians per day killed in Iraq in June. Yet the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count put the number of Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths in June at 870. If there were 3,149 civilians killed yet only 870 of them were genuinely civilians and security forces, what were the other 2,879 bodies? Terrorists and insurgents perhaps? Seems likely.

One of the difficulties that the UN and other objective observers have had is distinguishing civilians from terrorists. If the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count is anywhere near accurate, however, and some 2,800 non-civilian bodies were in Iraq morgues in June, then in fact some 93 terrorists/insurgents per day were being removed from the battlefield, or, since March 2003, it means well over 100,000 non-civilians have been killed by coalition forces since the beginning of combatperhaps upwards of 120,000. To be safe, using UN/New York Times numbers, we arrive at 75 terrorists/insurgents per day, or 36,000 dead enemy fighters since combat began.

Americans have experienced a killed in action/wounded ratio of 13% (although an astonishing 55% of American wounded return to duty in 72 hours!) Does anyone think the terrorists are experiencing that level of medical success with their wounded? Even at eight wounded for every terrorist killed, at the low end of 36,000 enemy dead, some 288,000 have been wounded since the beginning of combat, to a high-end estimate of 960,000 wounded. This doesnt even factor in the desertersall the jihadists who, upon seeing their vile brethren vaporized, quietly dropped the IED and went home, never to fight again. (One indicator that this is an impressive number is the surging size of the Iraqi national army and police forces, made up to some degree of former dead-enders who now hope to get on the winning side). Nor does it include the more than 5,000-plus known al-Qaeda dead in Afghanistan under Operation Enduring Freedom.

How realistic are these estimates? We glean some insight from reports of specific battles and campaigns that have already been published by the soldiers who were there. For example, Bing Wests book on Fallujah, No True Glory (Random House, 2005), offers insight on the incredible casualties inflicted on the jihadists in that 2004 battle, where one American sniper alone had 100 kills. Iraqi/Baghdad morgue totals, less actual identified civilian deaths, suggest more than 100,000 enemy dead in the last six months, a number consistent with individual battle reports over this time. This was further confirmed by Newsweeks report last year that the mullahs were running out of males to use as suicide bombers, and they had resorted to using women. Further, the statistics on IEDs, presented earlier in FrontPageMagazine.com, indicate that the terrorists are having to launch more and more attacks with fewer and fewer results.

In Americas Victories: Why the U.S. Wins Wars, I argued that Iraq was a giant Roach Motel, in which the terrorists check in, and only leave via the morgue. The real Iraq body count suggest I understated my case by several orders of magnitude. Let me reiterate that no one is looking at the enemy wounded, many of whom will never again fight, or deserters/quitters. As the Japanese found out with their kamikaze pilots, there is a finite number of warriors willing to commit suicide. There is alsoeven for the most fanatical of bushido-ist Japanese and Islamic jihadistsa critical mass in which fighters and would-be suicide bombers say no mas and quietly abandon the front.

The Roach Motel strategy, as bloody as it is, works as well for us in Iraq as it worked for Lord Chelmsford when he sent his army into Zululand in 1879 to draw out the Zulus and destroy them.

Zarqawis last memos testify to the effectiveness of this strategy, as does his corpse.

There are no winners in war.

Thiruvananthapuram, Aug 22 (IANS) Islam is history because we live in the 21st century now, opined controversial exiled Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen here Tuesday.

"The Islam religion and their scriptures are out of place and out of time. It still follows the 7th century laws and is hopeless. The need of the hour is not reformation but revolution," said Nasreen interacting with reporters here.

The feminist author of Bengali book "Lajja" is in Kerala in connection with the release of the Malayalam translation of four of her books, which would be released at Thrissur on Aug 24.

Nasreen said a secular state should have a uniform civil code and should be based on equality, existence and not on religion.

"The state can do a lot of things, and both the state and religion should be separate. The state should not encourage religion. Today religious education and madrassas (religious seminaries) are going up. Jehad is stupidity," said the writer.

She said she had been fighting religious fundamentalism for long.

"I don't go to the streets, instead I write and that is my way of protest. I was born in a Muslim family and Muslim women suffer under Islam. None told me to fight against oppression. It was inside me. Women are treated as slaves, sexual objects and childbearing machines," added Nasreen.

According to Nasreen, noted Kerala writer Kamala Surayya, who was Kamala Das before she converted to Islam, had now realised that she had made a mistake in converting to Islam. She had held a meeting with Surayya here earlier.

"When I asked her if she regrets becoming a Muslim, she said 'yes'. She has realised that Islam does not give equality," said the writer

I don't normally cut and paste, but this bears much thinking about;
Most people in the UK feel threatened by Islam, a poll has revealed, after the Government launched a bid to tackle inter-faith tensions.

The YouGov survey for the Daily Telegraph found 53% were concerned about the impact of the religion - not just fundamentalist elements - up 21% from 2001.

There had also been a near doubling of the number agreeing that "a large proportion of British Muslims feel no sense of loyalty to this country and are prepared to condone or even carry out acts of terrorism".

A total of 18% backed the statement - compared with just one in 10 in the wake of the terrorist bombings in London last July.

And there was a seven point slump - to 16% - in those believing "practically all British Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding citizens who deplore terrorist acts as much as anyone else".

Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly earlier launched a Commission on Integration and Cohesion as part of the Government's response to the July 7 bombings.

She called for an "honest debate" on how to best to bind communities and conceded multiculturalism may have led to isolated communities.

Her speech drew a cool response from some Muslim groups.

Youth organisation the Ramadhan Foundation criticised ministers for failing to recognise that integration was "a two-way street".

The YouGov poll surveyed 1,757 adults across Britain online between August 22 and August 24.

We must address why people feel this way, and if that means talking to extreme groups, like the BNP, then that is what we must do, otherwise these figures, and the tension, will only get worse.
Alan

Just a few thoughts as to why the above poll is swinging the way it is;
Apartheid.
In Leeds, we have a Seikh Sports Centre. Imagine the furore if we had a whites only one??? I know Seikhs and Muslims are very different, but in the minds of many, they are all under the same Asian umbrella.
A very popular local school, is a C of E school and it is mandated by our council that a small percentage of its intake must be of "non-christian" ethnicity. That mandate does not apply to the other religious schools in Leeds.
Every winter, I go to our primary school (100% white) and watch the story of Divali being told. At Christmas I watch a play that has virtually nothing to do with the nativity, and when I go to assemblies, it must be non-denominational.
Every other year, when Englan play in the World cup or European Cahmpionships, my neighbours are told by the council to remove the cross of St Geaorge from their properties. Every year our local parks are taken over for the melia(?) which is a party to celebrate asian culture, paid for by the same council.
I read of other councils where the cross is removed from crematoria, for fear of upsetting non christians. I read of councils (such as Bradford) who celebrate "Winterfest", but put up lights and trimmings at great expense to celebrate Ramadan.
Now I believe that most Asians, could not care less whther we celebrate Christmas. After all, Christ is revered by them as a great prophet. I don't think they are bothered what we teach kids at school, or whether we use the national flag to support our teams. I think the hand wringers have got it badly wrong, and i think it is the main reason why both whites AND Asains fell so marginalized. It has failed badly and accounts for why people are thinking the way they do. It is not the terrorism that makes someone feel unwanted in towns like Dewsbury. It is the way the policy makers teach whites to be ashamed of their race, and in so doing, teach them to feel afraid of, and antagonistic toward, Asians, who then feel threatened.
Alan

alan it's the doo goodey monority that keep f@@king it up for everybody else.
I really coud'nt give a monkeys who's celebrating what, and I get the impression neither does anybody else. So long as the foods good, i;ll get dragged along by the kids. We're too busy trying not to upset anyone that all we do is upset everyone by being over-compensating or ignorant, in equal measure.
most muslims respect xmas- after all christ was one of their prophets.
religion should be banned

clean hands policy. The pacifist, it is said, refuses to take the brutal measures necessary for the defense of himself and his country, for the sake of maintaining his own inner moral purity. It is contended that the pacifist is thus a kind of free-rider, gathering all the benefits of citizenship while not sharing all its burdens. Another inference drawn is that the pacifist himself constitutes a kind of internal threat to the over-all security of his state.

Or the ostrich policy, bury ones head in the sand, it will be all right in the end!

State with in a state coming to your part of the world shortly, watch this space.
Thankfully not my part of the world.

Responsibility for policy and administration of such a state "should rest primarily with those who believe in the Islamic ideology." Non-Muslims, therefore, cannot be asked to undertake or be entrusted with the responsibility of policymaking.

The law in Islamic countries.

the only saving gace of an islamic state would be , you'd be one of the first up against the wall.
vive la revolucion.
LOL

Yet another voice in America proclaiming the idiocy of the war. This time a book by the the highly respected Washington Post defence correspondent Thomas E Ricks -FIASCO: The American Military Adventure in Iraq. Essentially argues that every decision taken by the inner core of neocons (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney) played into the hands of the enemies, making the situation worse rather than better.

Several charges made with scrupulous fairness:-

The US encouraged the Kurds to rebel but did nothing to stop the atrocities on them by Saddam

Clinton had already made great strides; the multiple air and cruise strikes came close to destroying the regime and also put an effective end to the Iraqi WMD programme

Links between the Iraqi regime and Al-Qaeda were grossly exaggerated, if not invented entirely.

Highly dubious and contradictory intelligence coming out through Ahmed Chalabis organisation was cherry-picked shamelessly to support their claims that Saddam was still developing WMD and even working towards nuclear weapons.

All the warnings, including those of General Norman Schwarzkopf, were dismissed. America was going to war with PowerPoint presentations. Conventional military planning was despised.

Basic strategy was what might be called a reverse domino theory. The Vietnam war had been fought to prevent the rest of southeast Asia going communist. In 2002, the neocon rollback idea was that a democratic Iraq would start its own domino effect and turn the Middle East round. The simplistic wishfulness even extended to Wolfowitz claiming that Iraq would be able to pay for its own reconstruction and to police itself.

In February 2003, General Colin Powell was forced into prostituting his own good reputation with a speech to the UN based on a total misrepresentation of the intelligence available.

The neocon strategy has achieved the opposite of what it set out to do. It has made the entire region far more volatile, has opened up a whole new front for Al-Qaeda and has brought it thousands of new recruits. Operation Iraqi Freedom has proved the most disastrous venture in modern times

It is a mesmerizing but grotesque catalogue of blinkered and counter-productive policies and actions where people with saner and more realistic views were ignored or sidelined by the arrogant and inept. He writes extremely well,it is a gripping read and disturbingly brings to mind Frank Zappa's observation that "stupidity is more pervasive than hydrogen". It should serve as a reminder to us all to consistently challenge and question the statements and policies of our "leaders" (many of whom are clearly criminally negligent and many of whom are worse). The price being paid for this catastrophe by American, British and Iraqui lives is horrific. Read it and weep.

I have a habit of challenging the statements of our journalists.
They have a bigger axe to grind than anyone else in the world. it is called the convictions of the owner / editor. they publish his views and selective facts to endorse them.
Do we forget already the ludicrous photographs and stories published in support of a trumped up story of torture by our soldiers? FAKED.
I think it reasonable to derive from that that journalists are not some kind of truth seeking white knight here to save us from the evil tyranny of our elected representatives. they are human and possess the same failings as all of us.
When it comes to the press, yes i do read it and weep.
Alan

The west aka Bush/Blair doing a first class job fighting islamic ignorance, these people have to learn when in rome do as the romans do........Bring them upto our level not down to theirs........Hope this helps regards as always... barwoni...

For WEST read dumb and DUMBERER.
Off to war we go, on a crusade to free the nation of iraq of its oil, sorry dictator.

Do as we say, not do as we do.
The best recruitment tool for AL QEADA, has been the war in iraq

await body count update c/o BAWONI.
In the eyes of the wider world, all deaths regardless of by whom are as a direct result of the war and our abject inability to formulate any stratergy to rebuild that works.
What IRAQ needs is another dictator.
LOL or else I'd cry.

?

Jesus.. thats just depressing.