This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Holy shit!!

What a load of drivel.
No ones a saint - but liberals will one day realize that we the normal people will have to make a stand and yes some people will be upset.

What really upsets me, Marc, is the way this country of ours has got into some kind of counselling mode.
At the hands of a liberal education and government system, we have slowly been brainwashed into believing we are a sordid little country with a regrettable past and no national identity or culture beyond yobbishness and alcohol.
We have done some terrible things in our history, when judged by the standards of today, but we have been, and are, world leaders.
We need, now more than ever, self belief and pride, a clear sense of morality and justice.
I know this sounds like the worst kind of political rhetoric, and it probably is, but our national identity is under attack, and we risk being relegated to the also rans unless we move on from the cathartic cleansing of the liberals, stop trying to appease the hand wringers and get on with the things that made us the envy of an entire planet.
I will never understand how anyone can focus on us running a slave trade or stealing land from aborigional peoples several hundred years ago, then choose to ignore that we have twice rescued an entire continent from oppression in just the last hundred years. Don't even get me started on health, education, industry, transport, justice and all the other things that we planted in other countries.
It beggars belief that people actually choose to wallow in their own shame, rather than look to how we can improve the future. not just for ourselves, for as we improve our lot, we will improve everyones. History has taught us that if nothing else.
Alan

Alan,

It is with deep regret that I read your last post. Regret only because the words were from your mouth and not mine.
It is very easy to look at the past. Its the future that matters.

Sounds like a one liner from American dross film.

Better than the one liner used in places like Iraq;
"Any last requests?"

23rd August 2006
My MBE
The followiing is a statement I made in returning my MBE:

"AS A LIFE-LONG SUPPORTER OF THE LABOUR PARTY I AM SO APPALLED AT THE GOVERNMENT'S FOREIGN POLICY THAT I HAVE DECIDED TO RETURN THE MBE I WAS AWARDED FOR "SERVICES TO FOLK MUSIC". I CAN THINK OF NO BETTER WAY, LAWFULLY, TO EXPRESS MY HORROR AND OPPOSITION TO OUR FAILURE TO CALL FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASEFIRE IN THE LEBANON AND TO OUR COMPLICITY WITH THE USA'S POLICY OF SUPPORTING ISRAEL'S ACTIONS IN PALESTINE.

TONY BLAIR'S SUPPORT FOR THESE POLICIES IS FOR ME A BETRAYAL OF ALL I TOOK THE LABOUR PARTY TO STAND FOR. THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ON ALL SIDES AND THE CHAOS IN BOTH IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN IS THE RESULT OF SUCH DECISIONS. THE PARLIAMENTARY PARTY AND THE CONSTITUENCY PARTIES, BY REMAINING SUPPORTIVE OF THESE POLICIES, ARE DISCREDITED AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.

I AM NOT SO FOOLISH AS TO EXPECT ANY GOVERNMENT TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER ALL ITS MANIFESTO PROMISES. I UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT THAT COMPROMISES HAVE TO BE MADE. HOWEVER, WHEN IT COMES TO WAGING AN ILLEGAL WAR IN IRAQ, THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ AND NOW, THE LEBANON, I CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT AS AN "HONOUR" A RECOMMENDATION SUPPORTED BY THE PRIME MINISTER, THAT I BE AWARDED THE MBE.

TONY BLAIR INSISTS HIS DECISIONS ARE IN SUPPORT OF DEMOCRACY. WE CANNOT BOMB PEOPLE INTO ACCEPTING DEMOCRACY ANY MORE THAN WE COULD SLAUGHTER PEOPLE INTO ACCEPTING CHRISTIANITY.

I UNDERSTAND MANY PEOPLE WITHIN THE FOLK MUSIC COMMUNITY HAVE APPLAUDED SUCH AWARDS AS A WELCOMED RECOGNITION FOLK MUSIC MAKES TO OUR COMMON CULTURE. I TRUST THEY WILL UNDERSTAND MY REASONS FOR NOW REJECTING AND RETURNING THAT AWARD.
Roy Bailey."

Would be nice to see a few more people with honours doing the same thing, I won't hold my breath thought.

Good post Stan! Must say also agree with post 792 made by Alan, its not all bad and about time we started to remember all the good this country has done, well done alan. At last a well rounded post rather than just war, war, war gloom!!

I understand Mr Baileys view and i admire his decision. I cannot however agree with the "facts" as he states them. His actions, while honourable, are misguided!!
The war was legal. End of. The greatest legal minds in the world have been hired to pick through and find illegality. They have failed.
Nobody is bombing anyone to accept anything, with the esception of Muslims bombing anyone they see fit to accept their twisted view of Islam. The chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan is not a result of foreign policy. It is a result of those same extremem muslims!! It really is very simple. Stop blowing innocent people to smithereens and we will leave. We will not leave for you to make the place as bad as it was before.
Israel has been a major headache for every leader in the world since its inception almost 60 years ago. Whatever any politician does or says on that issue, they will be wrong, as they have been in the past. Support Israel and you are bombing Palestinians. Support Palestine and you are supporting suicide bombers and terrorists. Call for a cease fire and you are an appeasor. Don't call for one and you are a war monger. No win.
Alan

Everything is legal until 'tried' and found illegal. Just because its seen as legal doesn't make it right!

H6, however many times you repeat the war was legal, the majority of people in this country, Europe and the UN in general do not and will not agree with you.

I wonder why Goldsmith would not publish his full opinion.

It was illegal and unnecessary and catastrophe.

The hope is that it may prevent similar maverick intervention without the support of the UN.

Indeed not. The maiming and slaughtering of women and children in Iraq by Saddam and his sons was legal in that country. It was not right.
There is still no getting away from the fact that the UN gave a unanimous mandate for the action. This was before any of the sexing up and other alledged lies happened. If the UN gave its blessing, it could hardly claim illegality afterwards.
The challenging of the allies actions is no more than most challenges to international law. It is a way for lawyers to make a lot of money for themselves and publicity to further their career. It has nothing to do with truth or justice.
Alan

It was legal. you saying you are in the majority is simply not true!! The war was mandated by the UN. there can never be an argument on that because the mandate is in black and white for anyone to inspect!!! Its the stuff of ostriches to claim otherwise!!!

LOLS! Same old record, half-truths and monumemtal pompous patronising.

Sounds like a BNP/UKIP broadcast at times.

I see Bush is getting desperate about mid-terms. He's now hoping to pass a bill that would legalise the military tribunals the Supreme Court had found unconstitutional in June, allow an elite squad of the CIA to continue Geneva-banned coercive interrogations, and grant retroactive legal impunity to all civilian officials who had authorised torture and war crimes since 9/11.

He will also talk of "coercive interrogation techniques" rather than torture.

There was a time when slavery, being homosexual or able to vote if your a woman were all illegal. The law changes and evolves with every generation. The war may be seen to be legal now but has yet to be tried. In ten years time, if tried will people still think this was a legal war?

Address the facts. the war was legal and morally justified. Future generations not liking something is not a reason to not do it.
Of course the law evolves. That is its nature. Is your proposal to retrospectively prosecute people???!!! Should I be fined for driving and using my mobile in the dys prior to its banning? Of course, murdering and torturing 8000 kurds in one sitting was illegal then and now, but we should have ignored it.

The war is not seen to be legal now . How many countries in the world is it morally justified to go to war ? Zimbabwe and a host of African states, Burma Ect:

In Zimbabwe white farmers were being killed many of them British born, Why didn't Blair invade Zimbawe ?

If you could read, you would see I had been arguing for action in Zimbabwe.
Please furnish empirical evidence for your assertation that the war is not legal. Empirical, not heresay, or journalistic claptrap.

Fred - Just to clarift things for you. The war was justified, legal and very much needed. I admit there are a handful of soft, tree hugging liberals who were a little worried that the iraq soldiers were fighting under duress, and did not have access to a teddy bear during the important years of thier youth.
There is no doubt that SH was a tyrant and a major risk to world stability. There was no alternative. He had played and manipulated the UN for years, while gassing and murdering at will. He had to go WMD's or not.

Oh for the simple life of certainty and beliefs.

Do they still print Boy's Own?

CNN yesterday said it all in one word "BARBARIANS"