Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Believe me, I am a member of the con artist party!

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36070761


George Osborne: EU exit would make UK 'permanently


"UK would be "permanently poorer" outside the European Union, Chancellor George Osborne has warned ahead of the in-out vote on membership on 23 June.
A Treasury analysis on the cost of an EU exit will say UK national income could be 6% smaller - the equivalent of £4,300 a year per household - by 2030.

Mr Osborne said the report, being published on Monday, "steps away from the rhetoric" and sets out the facts.

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Mr Osborne defended the report's findings on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, saying: "The conclusions could not be clearer. Britain would be permanently poorer if we left the EU to the tune of £4,300 for every household in the country. That's a fact everyone should think about "

The chancellor said "it would be the poorest" who would be most affected by an EU exit, citing people whose jobs "depend" on the car plants and the steel making factories.

"They are the people whose incomes would go down, whose house prices would fall whose job prospects would weaken, they are the people who always suffer when the country takes an economic wrong turn," he said.

He added: "If you look at the evidence and what the rest of the world is telling Britain and they are very, very clear: we would be permanently poorer outside the EU, let alone the short-term economic shock."

So you are using someone you despise to support your stay in stance Freda , when it suits you .

Every little bit helps.

Even from a party of "Ne'er Do Wells" and "sycophants".

The Fear Gauge now enterıng the Red Zone.

Personally, I would rather be a small, well run, productıve, effıcıent and innovatıve country. Utopıa I know. Cant see how that aspıratıon can occur ın EU as ıt stands wıthout any other changes that wıll be forth comıng ın the future form Brussels.

Where fred gets his 'me,me, me, anology baffles me????...
As most Brexiters believe that LEAVING is anything but selfless.

Being part the EU IS ALL about being selfish and who don't believe
in DEMOCRACY, and being ruled by a dictatorship and in the process
costing us BILLIONS of POUNDS.

Osborne's claims are just has far fetched has his claims that UK debt would be brought under control in his continued justification of cutting benefits for the disabled.

He's being wrong on a number of occasion's..And has he's stated in his latest Pro EU diatribe.. 'COULD BE' it 'could' also be up 6% or even more..

Did anyone see this dick on Andrew Marr, Emmanuel Macron ,threatening all sorts if we leave .
I really didn't like this guy.
======================

Britain would be 'killed' in trade talks if it left EU, says French minister

Major powers such as China would have little interest in negotiating with the UK outside the EU, claims Emmanuel Macron

Britain would be “completely killed” in global trade negotiations if it voted to leave the EU because it would be reduced to the status of Jersey and Guernsey, the French economy minister, Emmanuel Macron, has said.

As David Davis said David Cameron should be stripped of his right to negotiate a British exit in the event of a vote to leave, Macron warned that major powers such as China would have little interest in negotiating with the UK outside the EU.

Macron, appearing on BBC1’s Andrew Marr Show to highlight the new political grouping he has established in France, raised Tata’s decision to abandon its UK steel operations to illustrate the dangers of a British exit. This includes selling off its Port Talbot steel plant, the UK’s largest, which employs 4,000 workers.

Macron said Britain would have an even weaker hand in its negotiations with China, which is blamed for the crisis in the British steel industry after dumping cheap produce in Europe, if it were not part of a 500 million-strong trading block.


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Macron said: “Your decision to be taken is much more about your role in globalisation. I think UK is not about becoming Jersey or Guernsey. Today, you are strong because you are part of the EU. When you discuss your steel industry with China you are credible because you are part of the EU, not because you are just UK. You will be completely killed otherwise.

“You will never be in the situation to negotiate face to face with the Chinese because your domestic market is not relevant for the Chinese in comparison with their domestic market. EU is the first global domestic market.”

Macron’s argument highlights a key argument of the remain campaign. This is that Britain is able to secure stronger trading deals as a member of the EU, with a population of 500 million, rather than as a single nation of 63 million. Trade policy is negotiated at an EU level.

He spoke out as David Davis said Cameron could remain as prime minister after a vote to leave the EU but would have to hand the breakup negotiations with Brussels to a minister who had supported a British exit. In a sign of how the prime minister’s personal future could become an issue during the referendum campaign, Davis took issue with the former chancellor Kenneth Clarke, who said Cameron would be out of No 10 within 30 seconds if Britain left the EU.

And if the EU get their way and we stay in , we will have a population of over 70 million pretty dam quickly I would think jimmy and not the cream either .

Accepting that you should never trust a politician, momentarily setting aside the politics of the EU and acknowledging that everything comes down to economics.

What is the economic argument for voting out?. What evidence is there that our economy will be any better?

In a globalised, liberal capitalist world where do we fit? An economically isolated island on the edge of Europe.
Our city financiers ( no way as smart as they think there are) can't raise the finance to fund our new power stations or railways.
The best hope we have for our steel industry is a refinancing that shuts down the existing blast furnaces and puts up new ones that processes recycled steel. (mostly Chinese). This is a metaphor for our future outside Europe.

In economic terms alone I don't see us better off out.

Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics ask Tristram Hunt a Pro eu'er what the risk were of 'staying in' the EU.

He did anything but answer the question and kept reverting to the risk(in the remainers eyes) of leaving.

Watch the interview on bbc iplayer Sunday Politics..He avoided and waffled all the questions put to him on the risk of staying in..

Probably mates with Fred and Stan ,they never answer either.

will10------There is 83% of global GDP to go for as opposed to 17% within the Eurozone (38% when we joined) Our so called 'friends' who want us to stay have done nothing to explain the economic benefits of staying in, they just threaten us with isolation from Europe and other scare stories.

Reforming within Europe is going to be useless with 28 member countries having to agree on issues, we saw with the so called 'negotiations' how much sway we have, don't forget on 72 matters that the UK brought before the EU we were successful on absolutely none.

Are we the only country with dissenters? No, there are more people in Europe who are similarly questioning the unelected hierarchy, more countries are being pressed by their people to hold a referendum on 'in' or 'out' of the EU.
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one of the great fears that eu hierarchy has is the knock-on effect should uk vote to leave (fat chance)
there is no doubt that there is growing dissatisfaction across the board with the way eu operates - or doesn't as the case may be

If every country in the EU reverted to pre-join status these unelected faceless wonders known as the EU hierarchy, would be where?
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I just can't understand George this fanaticism to be so glued together , 30 odd countries . I could see a common bond or coming together over certain issues that we would all adopt and stick to , but it's bordering on madness where they want to go .

not if you're german!

George

Don't disagree, but....
At present we are doing our best at selling into those markets outside the EU but our biggest customer is still Europe. I doubt we will see any improvement selling elsewhere when we are shut out or have to pay tariffs on our sales to Europe. In fact some of what we make here is only because of European finance or as a result of being part of European groupings.

It is often claimed the Germans will still want to sell us BMWs even when we are outside EU and they will take our cars in return. Can't see that argument working. Those in UK that want BMWs can still afford them even with tariffs but for EU consumers the similar tariffs on our Datsuns and Hondas will knock sales. Germans sell top range, we sell mass market. We will suffer in the tariff war. Will new manufacturing investment come to UK or go elsewhere in Europe?

I only arrived in the UK in the late 1990's. But the inlaws tell me that for economic reasons the UK wanted into EU. The story of the mini gets brought up. A very popular product, but tariffs on any sales to Europe before entry to EU.

Voting in EU on economics. Only 50/50 on politics. But everything comes down to economics in the end.

WHY should WE have to pay tariffs???Not one country from
Iceland all the way to eastern Turkey pays ANY tariffs.....

And WHY should we be shut out of anywhere????

MORE LIES AND SCAREMONGERING!!!!...

will10---re ''but our biggest customer is still Europe''. This market is shrinking fast as a %age of global GDP, there is a much larger and growing market outside the EU. If we REMAIN we will have a share of a market place that is continually diminishing. Europe is fast losing it's importance on a worldwide stage, and imo this will continue to be the case.
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