Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Accepting that you should never trust a politician, momentarily setting aside the politics of the EU and acknowledging that everything comes down to economics.

What is the economic argument for voting out?. What evidence is there that our economy will be any better?

In a globalised, liberal capitalist world where do we fit? An economically isolated island on the edge of Europe.
Our city financiers ( no way as smart as they think there are) can't raise the finance to fund our new power stations or railways.
The best hope we have for our steel industry is a refinancing that shuts down the existing blast furnaces and puts up new ones that processes recycled steel. (mostly Chinese). This is a metaphor for our future outside Europe.

In economic terms alone I don't see us better off out.

Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics ask Tristram Hunt a Pro eu'er what the risk were of 'staying in' the EU.

He did anything but answer the question and kept reverting to the risk(in the remainers eyes) of leaving.

Watch the interview on bbc iplayer Sunday Politics..He avoided and waffled all the questions put to him on the risk of staying in..

Probably mates with Fred and Stan ,they never answer either.

will10------There is 83% of global GDP to go for as opposed to 17% within the Eurozone (38% when we joined) Our so called 'friends' who want us to stay have done nothing to explain the economic benefits of staying in, they just threaten us with isolation from Europe and other scare stories.

Reforming within Europe is going to be useless with 28 member countries having to agree on issues, we saw with the so called 'negotiations' how much sway we have, don't forget on 72 matters that the UK brought before the EU we were successful on absolutely none.

Are we the only country with dissenters? No, there are more people in Europe who are similarly questioning the unelected hierarchy, more countries are being pressed by their people to hold a referendum on 'in' or 'out' of the EU.
2517

one of the great fears that eu hierarchy has is the knock-on effect should uk vote to leave (fat chance)
there is no doubt that there is growing dissatisfaction across the board with the way eu operates - or doesn't as the case may be

If every country in the EU reverted to pre-join status these unelected faceless wonders known as the EU hierarchy, would be where?
2517

I just can't understand George this fanaticism to be so glued together , 30 odd countries . I could see a common bond or coming together over certain issues that we would all adopt and stick to , but it's bordering on madness where they want to go .

not if you're german!

George

Don't disagree, but....
At present we are doing our best at selling into those markets outside the EU but our biggest customer is still Europe. I doubt we will see any improvement selling elsewhere when we are shut out or have to pay tariffs on our sales to Europe. In fact some of what we make here is only because of European finance or as a result of being part of European groupings.

It is often claimed the Germans will still want to sell us BMWs even when we are outside EU and they will take our cars in return. Can't see that argument working. Those in UK that want BMWs can still afford them even with tariffs but for EU consumers the similar tariffs on our Datsuns and Hondas will knock sales. Germans sell top range, we sell mass market. We will suffer in the tariff war. Will new manufacturing investment come to UK or go elsewhere in Europe?

I only arrived in the UK in the late 1990's. But the inlaws tell me that for economic reasons the UK wanted into EU. The story of the mini gets brought up. A very popular product, but tariffs on any sales to Europe before entry to EU.

Voting in EU on economics. Only 50/50 on politics. But everything comes down to economics in the end.

WHY should WE have to pay tariffs???Not one country from
Iceland all the way to eastern Turkey pays ANY tariffs.....

And WHY should we be shut out of anywhere????

MORE LIES AND SCAREMONGERING!!!!...

will10---re ''but our biggest customer is still Europe''. This market is shrinking fast as a %age of global GDP, there is a much larger and growing market outside the EU. If we REMAIN we will have a share of a market place that is continually diminishing. Europe is fast losing it's importance on a worldwide stage, and imo this will continue to be the case.
2517

will - i don't know how many countries have joined eu in the last 15/20 years ...... it's probably quite a few, and of course many of those are effectively broke and thus causing an ever greater strain on the finances of other members ....... it also makes the whole ever more unwieldy and unable to change, due to the insane requirement for unanimous agreement on anything major ....... or of course no agreement at all except from the hierarchy in other matters

Grannyboy.

Tariffs do very much exist for non members selling into the EU.

There are various opt outs and other agreements. The UK will have to agree to tariffs on products that they wish to sell into the EU if similar products are produced in the EU.

We will not be shut out but will have to pay any tariffs.

Don't take my word try Google EU tariffs

i've just had a peek .....
it looks that there were 12 countries in 1994, increasing to 15 in 1995
eu is now 28 and growing

George

Don't disagree, big world out there we should go get their business.
Why would we be any better at it then we are now? Being in the EU now does not stop us selling to India, China. Can't see why being out suddenly will make us any better.
I think being out will make it easier for other countries to dump cheaper products into the UK.

Cynic

Don't disagree. Not a good economics in many cases.

being out will make it easier for other countries to dump cheaper products into the UK

i'ld be inclined to disagree, as theoretically at least, we would have the ability to make our own rules without being instructed or overruled by brussels

cynic

Yes.... but....
Tit for tat tariff wars will not necessarily work to our benefit if we want to boldly go out and capture the big world markets we aren't chasing at the present time.

as you rightly point out, tariff wars and protectionism can be dangerous places to tread ........ hence "theoretically"

We all remember this disloyalty from ALL those involved,
the most prominent was Osborne who sold his 'own countrymen'
down the river.....

mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osborne-backs-80m-loan-1415960


EU supplied an 80 million loan at an interest rate of just 2%to
the company in Turkey..

And they DON'T pay tariffs on exports to the EU...

Granny boy.
Any non euro country providing goods to the EU in competition to euro manufacturers of similar goods face tariffs or pay EU charges for the privilege.(Norway). The EU may wave tariffs on some items.
Note the EU set low tariffs on Chinese steel in part due to UK lobbying.
If we leave we will have to negotiate access to the EU market. If we wish to sell our cars etc or other manufactured items that compete with those manufactured within the EU we will face tariffs. It may be that we can negiotate open access if we sign up to all the EU rules and regs and pay a sum.(Norway).
There is no way that EU car manufacturers will allow us free access to their market.