Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

and praises jc for being totally uncommitted and indecisive, yet castigating tm for sticking to her guns, insofar as she is able given the huge pressures from elsewhere

It.

At least I am not mindless enough to wish to follow the “600” whistling Rule Britannia.

If it wasn’t so sad, it would be comical.
-=-=-=-

Manuel,

Try reading my comments on JC in my posts again, without trying to skew the contents to suit your own positioning.

Also, reread my comments on T. May, who is trying to present a case and solution for your "watery" self-positioning on Brexit, and her seen dilemma on Brexit as initially she was a "remainer", but know is directionless.
The main reason for her staying in “office” to the outsiders watching her continued her attempt to remain PM as a feeble leader of the fragmented tory rabble, is personal vanity.

By her actions she appears to be leading your party consisting of Neo-fascists, Neo-cons and self-serving wishy-washies into the wilderness singing false anthems.

You appear to be supporting a party of self-serving incompetents.

But, I do wonder what your hoped for long-term personal advantages of "Brexit" may be.

long term i don't like the idea one iota of becoming ever more beholden right across the board to brussels (aka germany and to some extent, france)

you choose to differ, and would also seem to like the idea of red flag inspired economics
i do not

and at least i get off my arse and cast a vote for what i regard as the least worst choice
you vehemently do not

I'm not in a position to make a professional diagnosis here but , I suspect Fred1new has basically Brainwashed himself into these thoughts and opinions over time , a general dislike of anything English , Conservative , sensible , etc . It seems he lives in a dream World full of make believe and fantasy , a bit like Corbyn really , of course he himself neither needs to partake in this fantasy or be responsible for it ( thus the no vote ) basically it's easy to do .

I have done a Plumbing course if that qualifies me .

This business of tying all the European countries into together is just crazy.....if there is a serious crisis : the whole community suffers !.....the EU did not deal with massive illegal immigration and so the UK voted to exit....there is no question of a second referendum....it's done and dusted....we exit march 2019.....and in my opinion it's for the better...regardless of all the well-heeled that say otherwise....

Manuel,

“long term i don't like the idea one iota of becoming ever more beholden right across the board to brussels (aka germany and to some extent, france)”


Do you mean in the EU or out of it?

If out:

We are already watching Theresa and consorts kowtowing her way around the world begging for future contracts and borrowing probably trying to do so under the import rules of the countries she hopes to trade with.

Or do you mean kowtowing outside the EU begging for continuation of contracts and already made dealing agreements, but no longer sitting at the table of those who make the rules and regulations or modify them.

Also, seen to be, by the EU members as untrustworthy and motivate by immediate self-satisfaction and prepared and hope to destroy the structure of the EU even though the UK help to construct.

Seems sensible to me. 8-(

-=-=--=

“you choose to differ, and would also seem to like the idea of red flag inspired economics

i do not”

---

No. I think I understand the usefulness of capitalism and its economics.

I think I understand the wishes and aspirations of some of the various forms of
socialism and some of their possible effects on the economic development within a country.

But, personally, I would prefer a form of controlled capitalism. I think perhaps some of the previous diehards in Labour, SNP, LIB/DEM and Greens have moved in that direction.

“and at least i get off my arse and cast a vote for what i regard as the least worst choice
you vehemently do not”
=-=

vehemently??????


Indifferent would be more appropriate.

I think both my vote and myself are inconsequential and the system can do without both.)

But politics, economics and consequences, do interest me.

-=-=
PS.

But I can see why Corbyn, Kenneth Clarke, Dominic Green, and many others (All good communists.) are hesitant and would prefer to negotiate changes in legislation from within the club, rather outside in the queue.

"if there is a serious crisis : the whole community suffers !.....the EU did not deal with massive illegal immigration and so the UK voted to exit"

What should the EU done?

Drowned them!

Washing one's hands of the problems and responsibilities by previous actions they had indulged in.

After WW2 there were between 8-11 million "displaced people".

The problem was accepted and managed.






-=-=-=

Thought Mother Merkel invited quite a few million in didn't she , quite naively .

and the migrants think they have a right to move to uk
i am likely wrong, but i recollect that migrants were meant to stay put in their first "safe haven"


btw fred, i have no problem at all with people who voted to stay in, but they lost the vote and that should be the end of the matter

however, i very much disagree (dislike) with your view that corbyn and his hard-left militant cronies would herald a better society

"i am likely wrong, but i recollect that migrants were meant to stay put in their first "safe haven""


Easy way of the UK denying its responsibility in causing some of the problems in the M.E. etc.

=-=-=-=-

"but they lost the vote and that should be the end of the matter"


Every time you have a "general election" one team or another losers and future policies are reviewed.

Also, some who were misinformed on the consequences have changed their minds.

It is better to have the chance of changing direction before the car crashes. Only fools never review their decisions.

-=-=-=

"however, i very much disagree (dislike) with your view that corbyn and his hard-left militant cronies would herald a better society"


You are obviously content with yourself and disregarding of the discontentment in society as a whole.

Perhaps this applies

"the sad thing is that even if some reached Utopia they would be greedy enough to want more for themselves and think they justified it?"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/06/complacent-europe-balkans-meltdown-russia

-=-=-=

Perhaps, Corbyn and some of his cronies believe in a better society for all.

Defining such is the difficulty.

'' Only fools never review their decisions''.


I voted to join The Common Market and over the years decided that I made the wrong choice, but I could not vote to alter that, it was only when DC reluctantly gave me the chance to Leave that I was able to change my mind, otherwise I would have gone to my grave without having that choice.


BTW were you as concerned for those who voted not to join The Common Market?

251,

Like myself you are entitled to change your mind. I doubt that when you are in your grave that decisions you previously made will disturb you.

The problem is when you contract into something as a country and then attempt to "break" your contract and the consequences to yourself (country) and others (countries) who believed you had relatively similar goals.

Read the previously posted :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/06/complacent-europe-balkans-meltdown-russia

It makes me think that it would be better to have a united EU with strong economic, defence, legal and police systems etc. in place.

I don't wish to go back to the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.

I think destabilisation of Europe is the last thing needed at the present time unless you are shorting the market or gambling on the possible chaos.

.

The country didn't make any contracts, they were made by successive governments and all the while drawing us (UK) towards a federal Europe with absolutely no thought for the people.

I agree it would be better to have a united EU with strong economic, defence, legal and police systems etc. in place, but that must be fair to all. Unfortunately the EU's insistence that the EURO must work has impoverished huge numbers of European citizens essentially young Europeans, the ones without jobs, the backlash is being seen through the ballot box.


I also agree the destabilisation of Europe is the last thing needed at the present time. However this is of the EU's unelected establishments own making.

a federal europe was not much though of or even at all back in 1973, when the eec was just 13 countries
at that time, it was seen primarily as a trading pact
since then, it has grown like the hydra

VICTIM - 08 Oct 2018 13:27 - 9600 of 9607
Thought Mother Merkel invited quite a few million in didn't she , quite naively .

---

She was after young blood; the age of Germany's population is a problem. No care was given to how they - probably an increased number from encouragement - would get there or for the countries they'd travel through.

Cheers,
KidA

Ah well KidA this is the problem really , how do you go about getting the people you want , do you advertise and they then apply , of course It didn't work like that they just stormed into Europe , all sorts . It was a massive error , not thought through .

Fred for President - do away with the Royals - the corrupt judiciary - the mandarins in the civil service that rule us - in a word the "Illuminati" and Fred will solve all the problems in the world because Fred knows best.

Fred's world would be a beautiful world .. or else.