Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

The bar is quite low though Stan.

Clearly not low enough to keep the trolls and hobgoblins from going up there to be near to Stan - George.

I expect low is the norm in Cornwall George.

meanwhile
the real labour leader says (guardian) .....
Unite leader warns Labour against backing second referendum


and DUP will apparently vote with the gov't in a no confidence vote

Alf duplicating posts alert!

Alf's Nanny dig's on!

My Conservative MP, Andrea Leadsom, currently puts her name to this:

40 reasons to back the Brexit Deal
Post date: 23/11/2018

Free movement will come to an end, once and for all, with the introduction of a new skills-based immigration system.

We will take back full control of our money which we will be able to spend on our priorities such as the NHS. We will leave EU regional funding programmes – with the UK deciding how we spend this money in the future.

The jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK will end.

In the future we will make our own laws in our own Parliaments and Assemblies in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.

We will leave the Common Agricultural Policy.

We will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and become an independent coastal state again, with control over our waters.

We will be able to strike trade deals with other countries around the world. Deals can be negotiated and ratified during the implementation period and put in place straight afterwards.

We will be an independent voice for free trade on the global stage, speaking for ourselves at the World Trade Organisation, for the first time in decades.

We will be freed from the EU’s political commitment to ever closer union.

We will be out of the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Rights, recognising the UK’s long track record in protecting human rights.

A fair settlement of our financial obligations, which will be less than half what was originally predicted.

Both the one million UK citizens living in the EU and the three million EU citizens living in the UK will have their rights legally guaranteed so they can carry on living their lives as before.

We will have a free trade area with the EU, with no tariffs, fees, charges or quantative restrictions across all sectors, helping to protect UK jobs. We will be the only major economy with such a relationship with the EU.

We’ve agreed with the EU that we will be as ambitious as possible in easing the movement of goods between the UK and the EU as part of our free trade area.

We will have an implementation period after we leave the EU during which trade will continue much as it does now. This will allow Government, businesses and citizens time to prepare for our new relationship.

The deal will see a greater reduction in barriers to trade in services than in any previous trade deal.

There will be an agreement that means UK citizens can practice their profession in the EU.

A comprehensive deal that secures access to the EU market for our financial services sector meaning the EU cannot withdraw it on a whim. This will provide stability and certainty for the industry.

A best in class agreement on digital, helping to facilitate e-commerce and reduce unjustified barriers to trade by electronic means.

We have agreed that there will be arrangements that will let data continue to flow freely, vital across our economy and for our shared security.

Trade arrangements for gas and electricity will help to ease pressure on prices and keep supply secure.

Strong rules will be in place to keep trade fair, so neither the UK nor EU can unfairly subsidise their industries against the other.

We will have a comprehensive Air Transport Agreement and comparable access for freight operators, buses and coaches.

We have agreed that there will be arrangements so we can take part in EU programmes like Horizon and Erasmus.

There will be a co-operation agreement with Euratom, covering all the key areas where we want to collaborate.

Visa-free travel to the EU for holidays and business trips will continue.

Our new security partnership will mean sharing of data like DNA, passenger records and fingerprints to fight crime and terrorism, going beyond any previous agreement the EU has made with a third country.

Our new security partnership will enable the efficient and swift surrender of suspected and wanted criminals.

Close co-operation for our police forces and other law enforcement bodies.

We will continue to work together on sanctions against those who violate international rules.

We will work together on cyber-security threats and support international efforts to prevent money laundering and the financing of terrorism.

Disputes between the UK and the EU on the agreement will be settled by an independent arbitrator, ensuring a fair outcome.

We will meet our commitment to ensure that there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

We will keep the Common Travel Area between the United Kingdom and Ireland, ensuring everyday life continues as now.

We will keep the Single Electricity Market between Northern Ireland and Ireland, which will help maintain a stable energy supply and keep prices down in Northern Ireland.

Both sides will be legally committed, by the Withdrawal Agreement, to use “best endeavours” to get the future relationship in place by the end of the implementation period, helping to ensure the backstop is never used.

An agreement to consider alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, including all facilitative arrangements and technologies, and to begin preparatory work on this before we leave the EU, reflecting shared determination to replace the backstop.

In the unlikely event we do have to use the backstop, a UK-wide customs area will ensure there is no customs border in the Irish Sea.

Gibraltar’s British sovereignty will be protected.

The deal delivers on the referendum result. It takes back control of our money, borders and laws whilst protecting jobs, security and the integrity of the United Kingdom.

Pie in the Sky!

"We will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and become an independent coastal state again, with control over our waters."


-=-=-=-=

Aah, that is where we are going to park the 2 aircraft carriers.

''We will leave the Common Fisheries Policy and become an independent coastal state again, with control over our waters.''...We sacrificed the fishing industry under Heath and we would have done this time as well.

Maybe John Redwood would make a good PM - he has been waiting long enough.

Remember The Sun headline back in 1995 - "Redwood or Deadwood" maybe they need to run it again.

Redwood? you really have lost it now CT.

Fascinating listening to some of the MPs 'doing their stuff' in the Commons earlier on Thursday afternoon.

Lots of MPs are refusing to vote it through on the 11th.

Fingers crossed the PM can come up with something to make them change their mind and that doesn't alienate the DUP

And Bercow, well, he is really putting the hours in as Mr Speaker for this mammoth debate.

and no sensible let alone feasible alternative put forward by those who oppose
if you are a conspiricist, you'ld say the russkies must be very pleased with themselves

sensible comment in today's FT ......

Britain must accept real trade-offs for any kind of Brexit

Brexit does not mean Brexit, it means trade-offs.
This is as true now as it was in 2016.
The most important of these:
The UK cannot have Brexit without harming its economy.
UK cannot have frictionless trade with the EU without obeying the club’s rules.
We cannot enjoy the skills and spending power EU migrants bring without the people.
We cannot have significant bespoke trade agreements while still a part of EU customs rules.
We cannot avoid a border in Ireland if we insist on leaving the systems designed to eliminate borders and also refuse one in the Irish Sea.

This is not an exhaustive list.

In short, Brexit does not make Britain special or turn the clock back to the 19th century.
The UK is not able to pick the rules it follows without consequences.
Yet, although trade-offs have been the lifeblood of the Brexit talks, they have hardly featured in the domestic debate, either in the referendum or since.

EL - You mention Bercow - he never even seems to get a toilet break - has he had catheter fitted to bottle below his gown. :-) Not good for his health otherwise.

The UK voted for Bexit - A Clean Break - Remainers have just failed the people - Remainers need to stop trying to say that the people really did not mean to have a clean break - regardless of the short term costs.

If the people cannot get what they want - another vote should sort that out.

Cyners,

You're starting to sound like you'll be voting to stay in the next referendum.

Hallelujah, you've seen the light. Doc sans Proc will be next to realise the error of his ways, followed by Dilbert....

:o)

Another vote will sort nothing imo.

Depending on which way vote#2 went, one side or the other would want vote#3


There's no end to it, stick with what we have, but get rid of May and the remainers and we might actually make some progress.

i shall have similar but not identical misgivings as i did the first time about voting "out" but i think i shall for all that - my wife assuredly will

assuming there is indeed a 2nd referendum, which i think is all wrong anyway, if the result is "about turn", then i shall be content to go along with it, just as i would have been initially

the rabids will no doubt continue to rave :-)

Another vote will give the Great British public the opportunity of making the correct choice, Max. Once they've got it right, there won't be a need for any more referenda.