This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Death toll in Iraq is shocking, staggering
October 15, 2006 LA TIMES


Re "Study Puts War's Iraqi Death Tally at More Than 600,000," Oct. 11

I read with shock your report on the new Lancet study finding of more than 600,000 deaths since the Iraq invasion, and it motivated me to review the complete study. This was a scientific, peer-reviewed epidemiological study published in one of the world's most prestigious medical journals. The authors followed the same methodology that has been used to provide unchallenged estimates of deaths in other conflicts, such as the Congo.

It is puzzling, therefore, that the writer reports unsubstantiated challenges to the methodology. That President Bush and the purveyors of the Iraq war strive to provide a spin that denies the extent of civilian casualties is not surprising, but it has no bearing on the study's scientific validity. That the findings are inconvenient for Bush does not make them inaccurate. The administration has famously stated that it doesn't count civilian casualties.



Bush acknowledged that Iraq had nothing to do with the events of 9/11; we also must acknowledge that not one of the more than 600,000 people who have been killed in Iraq had anything to do with the 9/11 events.

The scale of needless suffering the U.S. invasion has brought on the people of Iraq defies the imagination. Is it any surprise that the vast majority of the Iraqi people want us to leave?

CURREN WARF MD

Board Member

Physicians for Social Responsibility

Los Angeles


So please Bawoni, link Iraq to any terrorist outrage against the west.
If all the preseidents men can't do it.........
Oh i'm sorry, I forgot your only interested in muslim bashing.:-)

Oh i'm sorry, I forgot your only interested in muslim bashing.:-)

extermination!

300 million strong... and growing

by J. Christoph Amberger

Sometime next week, there will be 300 million people living in the United States of America. The U.S.A. will rank third behind China and India in regards to population.

And while populations in Europe and industrialized Asia are stagnating if not already shrinking, the U.S. just keeps adding people. Between 2004 and 2005, government statisticians confirmed a natural increase (i.e., births minus deaths) of 1.7 million people and another 1 million immigrants.

This makes the United States the odd man out among industrialized nations. No other industrialized country comes even close.

An addition of 2.7 million people means that the United States absorbed the equivalent of the total population of Oman or Mongolia or Jamaica in a single year; or added the equivalent of the total population of the city of Chicago -- each and every year.

-- The effects of that immigration can bee seen anywhere you drive in the Northeast and South as well as the West Coast. I noticed it again as I drove our Boy Scout troop down to Calvert Cliffs for our weekend campout:

Roads that were distinctly rural a decade and a half ago, when this immigrant was making his first exploratory forays, had transformed into broad, smooth strips of asphalt that make the original Autobahn look like a gravel path. And they cut a swath through new residential developments, strip malls and new commercial townships that consisted of bait and liquor stores when the first Bush was in office.

Townships that put billions into developers pockets and are now pumping billions into households and tax coffers.

In this months Smithsonian magazine, Joel Garreau provides a bit of perspective what this means:

One fortuitous result (...) is that the median age here is only a little over 35, one of the lowest among the worlds more developed countries. This country also has the most productive population per person of any country on the planet -- no matter how you measure it, and especially compared with Japan and the members of the European Union. This is crucial to everyone who plans to retire, because once you do, youll want a bunch of young, hard-working, tax-paying people supporting you, whether directly, through family contributions, or indirectly, through Social Security and pension programs. Unless youre rich enough to live off your investments, there is no alternative.

Immigration to the United States is also keeping its neighbors content... or at least in a blissful state of inactivity that comes from someone else solving ones economic problems. American economist and frequent Forbes contributor Steven Hanke wrote last June:

Rather than modernize the economy, Mexicos politicos have embraced a Tito-inspired strategy: when incapable of fostering productive jobs, export the labor force. As a result, over 27 percent of Mexicos labor force is now working in the U.S. and these workers are sending home $20 billion in remittances. That equals one third of the total wage earnings in the formal sector of the Mexican economy and 10 percent of Mexicos exports.

When thinking about the state of the U.S. economy, these are factors that somehow never make it into the general awareness of the mass media: The U.S. economy not only is strong enough to have almost full employment of its population, it also carries over a fourth of the total labor market of its neighbors. Add in the outsourced jobs -- all the Indian telemarketers and Chinese laborers -- that depend on American orders and you get a more accurate picture of Americas role as the engine of global economic growth.

Pakistan replaces banned duo
Tue 17 Oct, 8:13 AM


view photo
JAIPUR, India (Reuters) - The International Cricket Council (ICC) has allowed Pakistan to replace fast bowlers Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammad Asif, who were withdrawn on Monday from the Champions Trophy following positive drugs tests.

All rounder Yasir Arafat and left-arm spinner Abdul Rehman have been cleared to join the squad in India, the ICC said in a statement on Tuesday.

Pakistan have been reduced to 12 players for Tuesday's opening Group A fixture against Sri Lanka in Jaipur after Shoaib and Asif tested positive for the banned steroid nandrolone.

Pakistan also replaced skipper Inzamam-ul-Haq before the tournament with fellow batsman Faisal Iqbal.

Inzamam was banned for four one-dayers last month for bringing the game into disrepute after his team forfeited the Oval test in August following a ball-tampering row.
Cheats!

Tuesday October 17, 08:34 AM

Social division might split humans into two sub-species 100,000 years from now, an evolution expert has claimed. The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative. They would be a far cry from the "underclass" humans, who will have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.

The forecast was made by Dr Oliver Curry, who spent two months investigating the ascent and descent of man over the next 100 millennia.

He

said, within a thousand years, humans will evolve into coffee-coloured giants between 6 and 7ft tall.

But Dr Curry said centuries of sexual selection - being choosy about one's partner - was likely to create more and more genetic inequality.

The logical outcome would be two sub-species, "gracile" and "robust" humans.

Dr Curry said: "Things could get ugly, with the possible emergence of genetic 'haves' and `have-nots'."

Other predictions included:

:: Physical appearance, driven by indicators of health, youth and fertility, will improve.

:: Men will exhibit symmetrical facial features, look athletic, and have squarer jaws, deeper voices and bigger penises.

:: Women will develop lighter skin, large clear eyes, pert breasts, glossy hair, even features and smooth hairless skin.

:: Racial differences will be ironed out by interbreeding, producing a uniform race of coffee-coloured people.

:: Improved nutrition and medical science will see people growing taller and fitter, while life-spans are extended to 120 years.

Tweetie/Fred gobliners

The above hypothesis is the vision of the future in H G Wells' "The Time Machine" The two species of humans that evolve are the Eloi (gracile) and the Morlocks (robust) -- who live by cannibalising the Eloi.

H G wells wrote the book in 1895. Nothing new here, folks.

Ba, the thought of a subspecies like you living to 120 is horrendous!

Off topic to all atheists on this BB.

(study of Blair's human character and nature is getting less educational ...)

If you are an atheists, do you think you have free will ?

Quiet, I will be seven feet tall :-)

A quick mention of Peter Mandelson by David Blunkett in his diary makes me wonder perhaps PM is the REAL instigator behind some of Blair's policies and actions.

"
There are king makers.
There are king shapers.
And there are those who sell new clothes to the king.
"

It will be very interesting to know who is now trying to quietly befriend and get close to David Cameron and Menzies Campbell ...

AXDPC, I know I have a free will because I believe so. So I am told. 8-)








My kids are looking for it!

Fred, LOLLL.

Risking taking your thread further off-topic, but could what we perceive as free-will rmerely the outcome of deterministic outcome from natural laws of physics and chemistry ... ?

(Not a trick question. It is one of my current ponderings seeking other people's opinions)

Back on topic ...


12 Oct 2006

The head of the British Army said the presence of UK armed forces in Iraq "exacerbates the security problems". In an interview in the Daily Mail, Sir Richard Dannatt (RD), Chief of the General Staff, is quoted as saying the British should "get out some time soon".
...


13 Oct 2006

Army chief defends Iraq comments.

Blair gives backing to army chief.
"I've read his transcript of his interview on the radio this morning, and I agree with every word of it."


14-15 Oct 2006

Criticisms of RD from senior government ministers ...


16 Oct 2006

Des Brown statement supporting RD (presumable against criticisms over the weekend)


17 Oct 2006

Blairs says "No walking away from Iraq "



"I agree with every word of it." ... LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

(poor Blair)

Could Dr. Oliver Curry be a conspiracist wearing cloaks of scientific hypothesis and
H.G. Wells another conspiracist hiding under the covers of fiction? :-))

During the height of Israel-Lebanon conflict a few month ago, there were two marches in London. The first march was in support of Lebanon, countered soon after by a march for Israel. From what I've read, the marchers for Lebanon were not concerned about possible injury to British Jews in Israel, nor are the marchers for Israel cared much about the suffering of British Arabs in Lebanon. IMHO, Behind and beneath all the slogans and shoutings there are probably more interest in killing than saving.

! ? :-(

BTW, what I've read is certainly not complete and even if I have read all the reports written from first hand observations, I will still not be certain I have a full and truthful knowledge.

60 US troops killed already this month , looking like Vietnam

politicians should be sent - the b*st*rds

http://iraqwarnews.net/

barwoni, interesting site.


maddoctor, agreed.

The soldiers took the Queen's silver, so have the politicians and every PUBLIC servants. Many things are done in the name of God, country, the Queen, the public and the shareholders. But how many people are genuinely fulfilling the wishes of God and Queen, and acting wholely in the interests of the country, the Public and the shareholders ?

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (CNN) -- Four U.S. soldiers accused of raping and killing a 14-year-old girl and slaying her sister and their parents will face courts-martial on murder charges, military officials say.

The commander of the 101st Airborne Division has referred murder charges against the soldiers for the alleged crimes that occurred in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, in March. Two of the soldiers could face the death penalty if convicted.

According to a written statement, Maj. Gen. Thomas Turner made the decision after reviewing a report of the investigation and receiving recommendations from the investigating officer, the appointing authority who directed the investigation and his staff judge advocate.

One of the soldiers, 23-year-old Army Spec. James P. Barker, told an Army criminal investigator that after the killings he poured kerosene on the girl's bullet-ridden body, according to testimony in August at a military hearing. The girl's father, mother and five-year-old sister were also killed, according to military officials.

Barker said in an interview that he held the girl down while she was raped by another soldier, Sgt. Paul Cortez, 23, according to Special Agent Benjamin Bierce of the Army's Criminal Investigation Division.

Barker said he then attempted to rape the girl himself, before she was shot to death by former Pfc. Steven D. Green, Bierce said. Green is no longer in the military and faces charges in civilian court.

But, Barker added, he was not sure if he penetrated the girl, because he was having trouble getting an erection.

Bierce also testified that Barker admitted pouring kerosene from a lamp onto the girl's body, although it was unclear from the testimony who set the girl on fire.

Bierce's testimony came during a preliminary hearing in Baghdad for Barker, Cortez, and two other soldiers, Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, 21, and Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, 19, who are also charged in connection with the killings in Mahmoudiya.

The hearing, similar to civilian grand jury proceedings, was held to determine whether there was enough evidence to proceed to courts-martial.

Soldiers held girl down, investigators say
According to statements given at the hearing, the soldiers were drinking whiskey, playing cards and hitting golf balls when Green brought up the idea of going to a house near the checkpoint where they were stationed, to rape the girl.

Barker described Green as very persistent, Bierce testified. The statements said the five soldiers -- Green, Cortez, Barker, Spielman and Howard -- then changed into dark clothing and covered their faces, before going to the house.

According to Barker, Howard was the lookout and was given a radio to use if anyone approached, Bierce said. The four remaining soldiers then entered the home, at which point the statements from Barker and Cortez about what happened diverge, according to testimony.

Barker told investigators that Cortez pushed the 14-year-old girl to the floor and made "thrusting motions" as Barker held down her hands; then they switched positions, Bierce said.

Sometime during the assault, Barker said he heard gunshots come from the bedroom, where the girl's parents and sister had been taken, and an agitated Green emerged and said he had killed them, Bierce said.

According to Barker, Green then put down the AK-47 he had been carrying and raped the girl, while Cortez held her down, and then picked up the gun and shot her several times, Bierce said.

Green then went into the kitchen and, when he returned, said he had opened the propane tank and they needed to get out of the house because it was about to explode, Bierce said.

However, in his statement to U.S. Army investigators, Cortez denied raping the girl, although he admitted holding her down while Barker raped her, Special Agent Gary Griesmyer testified.

Under questioning, Griesmyer testified there was no evidence Spielman raped or murdered anyone in the house.

Special Agent Michael Hood also said Spielman passed a polygraph test in which he denied shooting or raping anyone. However, in his statement to investigators, Barker put Spielman at the scene and said Spielman grabbed the five-year-old girl outside the house and took her inside, Bierce said.

After the alleged attack, Barker also said the soldiers gave Spielman their clothes to burn and that he threw the AK-47 in a canal, Bierce said.

A sixth soldier, Sgt. Anthony W. Yribe, has been charged with failing to report the alleged rape and killings, but was not alleged to have been a participant.

A soldier's suspicions
Also testifying at the August hearing was a soldier in the same platoon as the accused men, Pfc. Justin Watt, who said he began trying to find out what happened at Mahmoudiya after Yribe confided to him that Green had told Yribe about the rape and killings.

"I wanted to see if I could confirm my suspicions that there were more people involved," Watt said. "I believed there were American forces involved."

Watt said when he asked Howard about what happened, Howard revealed the plan to rape the girl and that his role was to be the lookout. "(Howard) let me know that he ended up seeing a Humvee and calling them back frantically," Watt testified.

Howard also told him that when the other soldiers returned from the house, "Their clothes were covered in blood," Watt said.

After piecing together the details about what happened, Watt said he reported his suspicions to a combat stress team. "If you have the power to make something right, you should do it," Watt said. "Investigation is not my job. But if something went down, something terrible like that, then it's my obligation to come forward."

However, Watt also described the conditions at Mahmoudiya as a "suck-fest," testifying that the soldiers were living in the basement of a "dilapidated, abandoned water treatment facility," and had gone 30 days without a shower.

He also said the ongoing violence, including the deaths of two soldiers in their unit shortly before the slayings of the Iraqi family, had affected everyone. "I was going to get a memorial tattoo of all the guys (who were killed), but there's not enough room on my arm," Watt said.

Accused has "anti-social personality disorder"
Green, who was discharged from the Army and returned to the United States in May because of an "anti-social personality disorder," is facing rape and murder charges in a civilian federal court. He is being held in a Kentucky jail.

All six men charged are from the 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, based in Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

There is some confusion over the alleged rape victim's age. Identity cards and death certificates of the victims, which were obtained by Reuters news agency, show the alleged rape victim was Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi, with the birth date August 19, 1991.

The mayor of Mahmoudiya confirmed her identity and birth date to CNN. The U.S. military had previously referred to the alleged rape victim as a "young Iraqi woman."

A Justice Department affidavit in the case against Green says investigators estimated her age at about 25, while the U.S. military said she was 20.

Marines face murder charges in separate case
In Camp Pendleton, California, on Wednesday a U.S. Marine general ordered three Marines to stand trial on murder charges in the April killing of an Iraqi man outside Baghdad.

Cpl. Trent Thomas, Lance Cpl. Tyler Jackson and Lance Cpl. Robert Pennington are among a group of seven Marines and a Navy medic who have been held at Camp Pendleton since June in connection with the killing of Hasham Ibrahim Awad, 52, in the town of Hamandiya, west of Baghdad.

They face possible life sentences if convicted of murder. Lt. Gen. James Mattis, the chief of Marine forces in the Middle East, ordered the courts-martial after reviewing each case, the Marines announced in a statement from the San Diego-area base.


Taking the moral high ground/on a crusade/doing gods work.
Ain't war great...brings the best out of people.

But, for the sake of balance, Saddam Hussain did this on a wholesale basis, along with his henchmen. None ever faced any sort of trial or retribution in Iraq.
An army is a microcosm of any community, and just as in all communities, there are criminal elements. They have been caught and are being tried. The entire operation should not be judged on the actions of some individuals. Please remember that this highlights the difference between the forces of Iraq and the forces of the alliance.
Alan