Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Which of the below would you prefer to buy a used car off?

Cameron
Osborne
Clegg
The tory front bench.

Would you check the number of wheels first?


PS. Alds,

I am surprised you can spell "IF".

" buy a used car off? " Try a OF at the end of that sentence.

.

" from whom would you prefer to buy a used car? " not you as well , Fred as just asked me that. Can we stop this nonsense ?

N.

Of course the nonsense will end.

Probably, when the coalition collapses

6-12 months.

But didn't expect the government to disintegrate so rapidly.

As said before, the Tuition fees fiasco is the New tory Poll tax.

The cost to a middle class family, with three children going to university may be up to 81,000 without the cost of board and lodging. (Work out for yourself the living and peripheral costs of students even if they live at home.

Ludicrous.

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I will accept "from whom", but reckon "off" is appropriate, as it seems to me that all those named,would be more suitably employed as second hand car dealers.

.

No he is not.















Sorry misread.


Or, perhaps misunderstood!

Actually, I don't think Ald. is a bad lad, just mislead.

8-)

Fred, the point everyone seems to be missing with the student fees issue is that your hypothetical family won't have to find 29,025 (3 children x 3225 fees x 3 years) UP FRONT so even the poorest could possibly entertain a university education. Isn't including the poorest in society what they call 'progressive'?

I do think the Coalition PR machine is piss poor at its job, or maybe they are saving all of the good news for the next election.

.

.

Raw,

Many from families of limited means will leave "university" with debts of over 30,000 to 50.000. Those taking courses such as Architecture, medicine, perhaps law will be leaving college with debts of up to 100,000.

To carry that amount of debt will be horrendous.

I am not certain about the effects on those taking Ph.Ds and MAs.

Personally, I feel those who get their degrees or various other qualification help to "oil" the functioning of "all" of "society" and help to educate and in general improve the general well being of society.

As a result of my "education" I was a high earner and was "happy" to pay tax for others to be educated for the general well being of myself and society.

Personally, I feel to introduce "graduate form of tax" is another unnecessary form of taxation. The cash raised should be out of general taxation by raising personal taxation.

When you consider the unnecessary Iraq war has cost 250 billion, so far.

I think there are some areas where cut backs would be more appropriate.

But one of the most irritating thing about this legislation is the "lying hypocrisy" by many of those of all parties in government.

Anybody with any sense will get their degree and then go work abroad. The loan just gets written off after a certain period of time.

The only way we can maintain free or cheap university education is to get rid of the non-degrees. Until that happens the budget is going to keep growing. As with everything publicly funded, it becomes unsustainable.

I don't know the fine detail of the proposals but I expect (could be wrong) that the debt repayments will be taken from any gross salary which will substantially reduce the overall income tax paid over time. This seems fair to me. If the debt repayments are taken from the nett salary then that would be wrong/profiteering.

If you are referring to the hypocrisy of the Lib Dems they have just discovered it is so easy to promise the world when no chance of being in a position to action it. Caught them out this time.

Just some thoughts & questions:

If it's right that graduates now and in the future pay something towards their education then perhaps those who have obtained their degree free at a cost to the taxpayer should contribute more now.

Don't people who earn more as a result of their degrees pay more tax anyway?

Does interest get charged on these loans. If so the poorer graduates, i.e. those earning less will be paying more and over a longer perioid.

If the charge being raised is against the individual going to university why does the parents income (poorer students) get taken into account? 'Poorer students' might get law degrees and earn a fortune.

If graduates have to pay because they benefit why don't public servants - including politicians - pay for their own pensions?

Rawdm999,

You say, 'The only way we can maintain free or cheap university education is to get rid of the non-degrees.'
Too true. You can study for a degree in just about anything these days.
Also when my son was a student studying IT he would often travel over 1 hour for a single lecture lasting less than the travel time. Some weeks his total in uni study time was less than 4 hours per week, with often lectures being canceled on arrival.
He was on a 3 year course that he and many of his friends I spoke to, said could easily have been cut down to 18 months.
University Lecturers are paid huge amounts of money to do very little work.
I appreciate they have to prepare these lectures, but once prepared they are used many times.
So as well as getting rid of 'Mickey Mouse' courses they also want to make sure the time spent in universities is far more productive.

List of 8 most useless degrees from around the world. No doubt someone can come up with a list of those in the UK.
Most of these are for those who feel they can't gain a real degree.

David Beckham studies Staffordshire University, UK
Madonna (the singer) various colleges
Doctorate of Philosophy in Ufology Melbourne University
The Phallus Occidental College, studies between the phallus and the penis (Bet if thats a practical the lecture halls full).
Surfing Studies Plymouth / Melbourne
Queer Musicology UCLA
Star Trek Georgetown University in Washington
And yes, you can actually obtain a degree in Micky Mouse.

I understand that many feel the subject is irrelevant as they all show that the student can study, but imagine you are a boss or someone in HR and the CV states a degree in for example The Phallus. Who cares, would you count that as a plus.
The main culprit of all this in the UK has to be the ridiculous push of Tony Blair who wanted at least 50% of the population to have a degree, Then the even more ridiculous aim of everyone having a qualification at degree level.
The idea of a degree when I was in education in the 50/60s was that a degree was special and it set you apart as in the top few percent.
Dumbing down Blair got the obvious results. As one with an education that finished at the age of 14, going into an apprenticeship, even I as uneducated as I am could see that Blair's policy was bound to fail.

Hilary,

It is the type of advice I would expect you give.
The problem is that sometime or other the emigrant may wish to return home.

I have a hunch that the legislation which will be introduced for the purpose of a graduation tax will be modified in order to prevent Debts being written off.

==============

Raw,

I think if you check the various tory promises, many have promised that the actions, which they are now attempting to legislate, would not be introduced and Education the NHS would be protected from financial cuts.

This shows the duplicity, or naivety, of the tories and Lib/Dems before the election. There was also naivety, of the many in the labour party, who thought the expansion of education could continue in the manner which it had been.

Numerous mistakes have been made in British Education over the last 40 years.

Some of them were started by the tories under Thatcher and then continued by Blair, led to the too rapid increase in the number of University students and those in adult education.

This led to the Polytechnics and some universities, providing Mickey Mouse courses and degrees.

This was partially due to the change in funding of the universities and led to the devaluation of many university degrees and staff.

Fairness.

I think the individual and society as a whole benefit from having teachers, solicitors, lecturers, researchers, doctors etc. and therefore if able should be prepared to pay taxes to facilitate the development of those necessary individuals. Also, I think those who have received payments, out of taxation, should be prepared to pay taxes according to earnings and their means.

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G,

University Lecturers are paid huge amounts of money to do very little work.

Check the average pay for university lecturers.

Check what the responsibilities of many lecturers are. Also, check the amount of research they undertake and the developments occurs as a result of what they do.

Much of the wealth of this country is due the research done by science graduates and lectures. This also applies to graduates from other fields and background.

Perhaps, your health, or that of your family, is dependent on the research of medically qualified lecturers, who earn far less in academia research, than they could in private practice.

This applies to many academic staff of university.

Fragmented courses, good point greek, and those were the type of degrees I had in mind.

The worst possible move was converting the technical colleges into Universities. Not everyone is suited for acedemia.

.

I agree with your fairness point but when it comes to funding the afore mentioned non-degrees it has to stop.

You'll probably find after a few years bedding in that graduates can demand higher salaries to assist with paying off the loans and if my earlier point on taxation is correct I really don't see a problem with the policy. It could turn out to be good for reducing public spending.

No, I'm not advocating anything of the sort, mnamreh.

I'm just saying that anybody with any sense will look at legitimate avoidance methods and then consider their options.