Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Here's Paul Scholes' delightful screamer of a goal that put Manchester United 1-0 ahead in Scholes' Testimonial match against New York Cosmos yesterday. The end result was 6-0 and Scholes should earn a reputed 1.5m from the match (allegedly).



If you'd like to see the other goals go HERE

Back to the god debate http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/vacdetails.cgi?selection=912699449 looks like it's important for some people to keep it going don't you think?

Nice little earner eh? Spending cuts, job cuts, "we're in this together"? Ho Ho.

CHAPLAINCY MANAGER
CHAPLAINCY
30,460 - 40,157 per annum (AfC band 7)
37.5 hours per week PERMANENT
NB: New starters to the NHS or those with over 12 months break in service at the date of appointment will commence on the minimum of the payscale

Barnsley Hospital NHS Foundation Trust is seeking to recruit a full time Church of England Chaplain into the post of Hospital Chaplain.

You will oversee and ensure delivery of a comprehensive chaplaincy service across the hospital, meeting spiritual and pastoral needs of patients and staff, as required.

Hmmm?

Didn't some nurse at one hospital get the chop, merely because she said to a patient, 'I will pray for you.'?

Didn't one at another hospital get the chop for wearing a cross and chain and refusing to take it off?

Also, aren't patients given the option to state their religion on a hospital entry form?

So it would be useful to equate this salary with the number of C of E hospital patients and see what the 'cost of the chaplain per C of E patient' actually is.

And what about patients who aren't C of E? ie, Muslims, Methodists, Catholics, Mormons, etc. Shouldn't the hospital be getting chaplains for them too?

How utterly ridiculous!

Oh my God

Perhaps, sometimes, the Chaplain can do more for some patients than the Doctors or the nurse.

Because, some are unable to see the value of having a religion for themselves, it is obvious many do gain from their "religious experiences".

A little like some like and enjoy Classical music others prefer counting their money.

For those who have a belied in a God it gives them a reason for "being" and and "explanation".

I think good luck to them.

Those without a "belief" often seem embittered by the pointlessness of their own existence.

----------------------------------

But our present chosen leaders are leading you to the promised land.

-------------------


Four more days for me and I will be in my promised land, France

Hope I can afford the boat back.

Fred

I do agree with you that it is not a good idea to take something away from soneone (ie. in this instance their 'belief in God') and put back nothing in its place.

Religion does provide 'hope' for lots of people, and particularly so for those who cannot be quite so self-reliant as lots of your so called 'non-believers' tend to be.

I disagree with you that 'those without belief are often embittered by the pointlessness of their own existence'. However, if that is your view, then you are quite entitled to have it. It just isn't mine.

I'm here to try and enjoy the 'pure being' of it all, whilst it lasts for me.

There is no problem with people having the freedom to believe in religion no matter how bad it is for them. What is iniquitous is giving religious organisations charitable status and subsidising religious schools as it just perpetuates the whole silly process. Religion should have no official status or special tax arrangements. Why should a group of people who have bizzare ideas be given state support to continue and propagate them.

But don't you think that those in power need religious leaders to teach morality to the masses and even have power over 'the masses' for what is morality?

That's why such leaders and organisations are given a bit of a hand with tax breaks and stuff.

The more wealth and power you enjoy for yourself, then the more you can create your own morality. This is not the case for the masses and those in power know full well, that religion gives them 'hope'.

Some church's expect you to give 10% of your gross income , the more your give the more blessing's you get, and if you don't give they say its like stealing from God .

I think the church sometimes takes advantage of people. I am sure I read they are one of the wealthiest land owners in the country.

"What is iniquitous is giving religious organizations charitable status and subsidizing religious schools as it just perpetuates the whole silly process. Religion should have no official status or special tax arrangements. Why should a group of people who have bizzare ideas be given state support to continue and propagate them.

Governments continue to subsidise Religion because religion provide much cheap labour compared to what it would cost governments to provide the same services, so it's purely an economic decision in the end.

Is this right. We have a new vicar. Its a lady from our village. You could argue that she has been to church for years and had to study to ordain. She is now in a very large vicarage. Her own property is let (with the funds going in the collection plate,YOU WISH . She is about 65yrs old.
The church pleads poverty here, collections for the roof, pews, walls, you name it.
You see the same individuals work non stop in fund raising events for the church.
Do not get me wrong, they may not want it any different.
I have not seen this vicar walk the village in 6 months.
I do not think these sorts of people will be around to help forever and there will be no volunteers. I was asked years ago to help with the grounds mowing,hedges etc. No equiptment supplied, their budget run out in two months. IS that taking advantage of people, when I think the church is wealthy. I may be wrong.

Exec,

I wrote often, not always.

But it often seems to me that some atheists scorn those who have a belief in a "god", with the same "venom" as those with a "god" scorn the atheism.
The fervour, to convert others to one's own position, often seems to be due to one's insecurity in with one's own stance. Perhaps the motivation is that the more one converts, or who at least join the "cause", the more validity the cause has..

----------------

As far as abuse by religions are concerned, I think, in general, they have probably been more responsible for the "advancement" and development of "civilised societies" than diminution of those societies.

I am not denying that horrendous crimes have been committed in the name of a God. (Stalin committed such "crimes" or "sacrifices" in the name of the revolution, or sometimes in the name of Lenin.)

(What the true beliefs, or reasons for those actions carried out are debatable. But many still believe Stalin was a "good man".)


Blind adherence, to "beliefs" whether, they are political, or religious, should I think be challenged and not inflicted on any group by an individual, or a group, simply by right of previous authority, or unchallenged "belief" in ones own wisdom .

I am using "authority" loosely, to mean institutional power (religious), hereditary power, political power (Peerage by rights of birth). All slightly different, but nevertheless insidious in our society.

I agree with all that you have said, Fred.

My God! Is that a first for you?

;-)

Morality can easily be taught in school without religion. Morality is only what is convenient for society.

Cheap labour, or rather free labour (which is now being pushed) is what it's all about.. what next? pay to work?

I have read even the Vatican only gives a very vague account of its worth.
Its argued is the catholic organisation one of the wealthiest going?
Is it not time accounts had to be drawn up each year.
Do churches pay tax after expenditure?
Does the tax payer give cash?

This piece is from 2006,


How much land does the Church of England own?
The Church Commissioners' 56-page report on the financial state of the Church of England released yesterday, made for, well, not particularly interesting reading really. It's the sort of thing journalists read, digest and regurgitate in highly condensed form so the rest of the population can learn the main points and get on with watching The Apprentice. One of the more fascinating parts of the report, however, concerned the Anglican church's property portfolio, which comprises 120,000 acres in rural areas alone.

The church owns large tracts of land in cathedral cities such as Canterbury, Ely, Peterborough and York and in towns such as Huntingdon and Kelmscott. More recently, it has invested in industrial estates in Swindon and Waltham Cross and shopping areas including the Cribbs Causeway Centre in Bristol. Its interests also spread to European property, with a stake in ING Property Fund Central Europe


What is more, the Commissioners have just gained planning permission for part of the Ashford Great Park estate, where the deputy prime minister is hoping to take time out from working on his dance moves to build some of his much-vaunted affordable housing.

The church even owns property in London's West End - 15% of its commercial portfolio, in fact, mainly within a shared interest in the Pollen estate. It has also begun to capitalise on the need for parking space in the capital, netting 19m last year from selling 99-year leases on garage spaces.

The CofE isn't neglecting property up north either. It holds a 10% interest and associated land in the MetroCentre in Gateshead, the largest shopping and leisure centre in Europe. The centre provides "shoppertainment" including an indoor theme park, an 11-screen cinema and a bewildering array of shops open seven days a week from 10am to 9pm (or 5pm on Sundays - glad to see they're showing a bit of respect). It's reassuring that the Commissioners are looking after the church's estimated 4.3bn well, returning 19.1% on their investments last year. Now all they have to do is get some of the thousands of Sunday shoppers at Gateshead into church.

Facts & StatsThe Church of England plays a vital role in the life of the nation, proclaiming the Christian gospel in words and actions and providing services of Christian worship and praise.

Its network of parishes cover the country, bringing a vital Christian dimension to the nation as well as strengthening community life in numerous urban, suburban and rural settings. Its cathedrals are centres of spirituality and service, and its network of chaplaincies across continental Europe meet important local needs.

The Church of England plays an active role in national life with its members involved in a wide range of public bodies. Twenty-six bishops are members of the House of Lords and are engaged in debates about legislation and national and international affairs.

The Church of England is part of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

Key facts about the Church of England:
Church attendance and visits
1.7 million people take part in a Church of England service each month, a level that has been maintained since the turn of the millennium. Approximately one million participate each Sunday.
Approaching 3 million people participate in a Church of England service on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve. Thirty-five per cent of the population attend a Christmas service of some sort, rising to 42 per cent in London, nationally, and 22 per cent among those of non-Christian faiths.
The Church of England has the largest following of any denomination or faith in Britain today. More than 4 in 10 in England regard themselves as belonging to the Church of England, while 6 in 10 consider themselves Christian.
People support their local churches in many different ways at different points in their lives. Each year 3 in 10 attend regular Sunday worship and more than 4 in 10 attend a wedding in their local church, while still more attend a funeral there
In 2009, 43 per cent of adults attended a church or place of worship for a memorial service for someone who has died and 17 per cent were seeking a quiet space. Both these proportions are increases on 22 per cent and 12 per cent respectively in 2001.
85 per cent of the population visit a church or place of worship in the course of a year, for reasons ranging from participating in worship to attending social events or simply wanting a quiet space.
Every year, around 12 million people visit Church of England cathedrals, including 300,000 pupils on school visits. Three of England's top five historic 'visitor attractions' are York Minster, Canterbury Cathedral and Westminster Abbey.
Education
Seven in ten (72%) of the population agree that Church of England schools help young people to grow into responsible members of society and 8 in 10 (80%) agree that they promote good behaviour and positive attitudes.
Latest available statistics indicate one in four primary schools and one in 16 secondary schools in England are Church of England schools. Approaching one million pupils are educated in more than 4,700 Church of England schools.Ministers
At the end of 2009, there were 19,504 ministers licensed by Church of England dioceses, including clergy, readers and Church Army officers: one minister for every 2,500 people in England. The total does not include more than 1,600 chaplains to prisons, hospitals, the armed forces and in education, nor around 7,190 retired ministers with permission to officiate.
The Church recommended 491 future clergy for ordination training in 2009, maintaining the level at the turn of the millennium.
It ordained 564 new clergy in 2009 Overall, 266 women and 298 men were ordained in 2009, with more than half ordained to full-time, stipendiary ministry: 193 men and 116 women.
Community involvement More people do unpaid work for church organisations than any other organisation. Eight per cent of adults undertake voluntary work for church organisations while sixteen per cent of adults belong to religious or church organisations.
A quarter of regular churchgoers (among both Anglicans and other Christians separately) are involved in voluntary community service outside the church. Churchgoers overall contribute 23.2 million hours voluntary service each month in their local communities outside the church.
The Church of England provides activities outside church worship in the local community for 407,000 children and young people (aged under 16 years) and 32,900 young people (aged 16 to 25 years). More than 116,000 volunteers and an additional 4900 employed adults run children/young people activity groups sponsored by the Church of England outside church worship.
Church of England congregations give more than 51.7 million each year to other charities - that's even more than the BBC's annual Children in Need appeal.
More than half a million worshippers subscribe to tax-efficient giving schemes such as Gift Aid, accounting for half the voluntary income of parish churches.
Church buildings
Nearly half the population (46%) think that central taxation, local taxation, the National Lottery or English Heritage should be 'primarily' responsible for providing money to maintain churches and chapels. These churches and cathedrals are largely supported by the efforts and financial support of local communities. Often, they are the focus of community life and service.
There are 14,500 places of worship in England listed for their special architectural or historic interest, 85% of which belong to and are maintained by the Church of England.
The Church of England has more than 16,000 churches, serving every inch of the country and open to every local inhabitant. There are 42 mainland cathedrals, plus one in Peel on the Isle of Man and the Diocese in Europe's cathedral in Gibraltar.
People value their local church and 68% consider it an important part of their local community. Those who consider churches important include 45% of people with no religion and 62% of adherents of other faiths. 70% believe it provides valuable social and community facilities and 57% believe it should be more actively involved in the local community.
Three church and cathedral locations are World Heritage Sites: Durham Castle and Cathedral, Canterbury Cathedral, St Augustine's Abbey & St Martin's Church, and Westminster Abbey and St Margaret's Church.
In 2006, necessary repairs to all listed places of worship in England were valued at 925m over the next five years, or 185m a year. Around 110 million is currently spent on repairs to Church of England churches per annum, 70% of it raised by the congregations and local community.


Sources:

Church Statistics 2003/4, 2004/5, 2006/7, 2007/8 and 2008/9



Opinion Research Business national polls 2000-2009

English Heritage and Church of England Cathedral and Church Buildings Division Joint Research 2006



Church Life Survey 2001

So that should have been the best day of the year that made every one happy at about 6pm.
Yep a great day for me. It was true.





http://youtu.be/4a5vaIsaxB8