Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Exec,

I wrote often, not always.

But it often seems to me that some atheists scorn those who have a belief in a "god", with the same "venom" as those with a "god" scorn the atheism.
The fervour, to convert others to one's own position, often seems to be due to one's insecurity in with one's own stance. Perhaps the motivation is that the more one converts, or who at least join the "cause", the more validity the cause has..

----------------

As far as abuse by religions are concerned, I think, in general, they have probably been more responsible for the "advancement" and development of "civilised societies" than diminution of those societies.

I am not denying that horrendous crimes have been committed in the name of a God. (Stalin committed such "crimes" or "sacrifices" in the name of the revolution, or sometimes in the name of Lenin.)

(What the true beliefs, or reasons for those actions carried out are debatable. But many still believe Stalin was a "good man".)


Blind adherence, to "beliefs" whether, they are political, or religious, should I think be challenged and not inflicted on any group by an individual, or a group, simply by right of previous authority, or unchallenged "belief" in ones own wisdom .

I am using "authority" loosely, to mean institutional power (religious), hereditary power, political power (Peerage by rights of birth). All slightly different, but nevertheless insidious in our society.

I agree with all that you have said, Fred.

My God! Is that a first for you?

;-)

Morality can easily be taught in school without religion. Morality is only what is convenient for society.

Cheap labour, or rather free labour (which is now being pushed) is what it's all about.. what next? pay to work?

I have read even the Vatican only gives a very vague account of its worth.
Its argued is the catholic organisation one of the wealthiest going?
Is it not time accounts had to be drawn up each year.
Do churches pay tax after expenditure?
Does the tax payer give cash?

This piece is from 2006,


How much land does the Church of England own?
The Church Commissioners' 56-page report on the financial state of the Church of England released yesterday, made for, well, not particularly interesting reading really. It's the sort of thing journalists read, digest and regurgitate in highly condensed form so the rest of the population can learn the main points and get on with watching The Apprentice. One of the more fascinating parts of the report, however, concerned the Anglican church's property portfolio, which comprises 120,000 acres in rural areas alone.

The church owns large tracts of land in cathedral cities such as Canterbury, Ely, Peterborough and York and in towns such as Huntingdon and Kelmscott. More recently, it has invested in industrial estates in Swindon and Waltham Cross and shopping areas including the Cribbs Causeway Centre in Bristol. Its interests also spread to European property, with a stake in ING Property Fund Central Europe


What is more, the Commissioners have just gained planning permission for part of the Ashford Great Park estate, where the deputy prime minister is hoping to take time out from working on his dance moves to build some of his much-vaunted affordable housing.

The church even owns property in London's West End - 15% of its commercial portfolio, in fact, mainly within a shared interest in the Pollen estate. It has also begun to capitalise on the need for parking space in the capital, netting 19m last year from selling 99-year leases on garage spaces.

The CofE isn't neglecting property up north either. It holds a 10% interest and associated land in the MetroCentre in Gateshead, the largest shopping and leisure centre in Europe. The centre provides "shoppertainment" including an indoor theme park, an 11-screen cinema and a bewildering array of shops open seven days a week from 10am to 9pm (or 5pm on Sundays - glad to see they're showing a bit of respect). It's reassuring that the Commissioners are looking after the church's estimated 4.3bn well, returning 19.1% on their investments last year. Now all they have to do is get some of the thousands of Sunday shoppers at Gateshead into church.

Facts & StatsThe Church of England plays a vital role in the life of the nation, proclaiming the Christian gospel in words and actions and providing services of Christian worship and praise.

Its network of parishes cover the country, bringing a vital Christian dimension to the nation as well as strengthening community life in numerous urban, suburban and rural settings. Its cathedrals are centres of spirituality and service, and its network of chaplaincies across continental Europe meet important local needs.

The Church of England plays an active role in national life with its members involved in a wide range of public bodies. Twenty-six bishops are members of the House of Lords and are engaged in debates about legislation and national and international affairs.

The Church of England is part of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

Key facts about the Church of England:
Church attendance and visits
1.7 million people take part in a Church of England service each month, a level that has been maintained since the turn of the millennium. Approximately one million participate each Sunday.
Approaching 3 million people participate in a Church of England service on Christmas Day or Christmas Eve. Thirty-five per cent of the population attend a Christmas service of some sort, rising to 42 per cent in London, nationally, and 22 per cent among those of non-Christian faiths.
The Church of England has the largest following of any denomination or faith in Britain today. More than 4 in 10 in England regard themselves as belonging to the Church of England, while 6 in 10 consider themselves Christian.
People support their local churches in many different ways at different points in their lives. Each year 3 in 10 attend regular Sunday worship and more than 4 in 10 attend a wedding in their local church, while still more attend a funeral there
In 2009, 43 per cent of adults attended a church or place of worship for a memorial service for someone who has died and 17 per cent were seeking a quiet space. Both these proportions are increases on 22 per cent and 12 per cent respectively in 2001.
85 per cent of the population visit a church or place of worship in the course of a year, for reasons ranging from participating in worship to attending social events or simply wanting a quiet space.
Every year, around 12 million people visit Church of England cathedrals, including 300,000 pupils on school visits. Three of England's top five historic 'visitor attractions' are York Minster, Canterbury Cathedral and Westminster Abbey.
Education
Seven in ten (72%) of the population agree that Church of England schools help young people to grow into responsible members of society and 8 in 10 (80%) agree that they promote good behaviour and positive attitudes.
Latest available statistics indicate one in four primary schools and one in 16 secondary schools in England are Church of England schools. Approaching one million pupils are educated in more than 4,700 Church of England schools.Ministers
At the end of 2009, there were 19,504 ministers licensed by Church of England dioceses, including clergy, readers and Church Army officers: one minister for every 2,500 people in England. The total does not include more than 1,600 chaplains to prisons, hospitals, the armed forces and in education, nor around 7,190 retired ministers with permission to officiate.
The Church recommended 491 future clergy for ordination training in 2009, maintaining the level at the turn of the millennium.
It ordained 564 new clergy in 2009 Overall, 266 women and 298 men were ordained in 2009, with more than half ordained to full-time, stipendiary ministry: 193 men and 116 women.
Community involvement More people do unpaid work for church organisations than any other organisation. Eight per cent of adults undertake voluntary work for church organisations while sixteen per cent of adults belong to religious or church organisations.
A quarter of regular churchgoers (among both Anglicans and other Christians separately) are involved in voluntary community service outside the church. Churchgoers overall contribute 23.2 million hours voluntary service each month in their local communities outside the church.
The Church of England provides activities outside church worship in the local community for 407,000 children and young people (aged under 16 years) and 32,900 young people (aged 16 to 25 years). More than 116,000 volunteers and an additional 4900 employed adults run children/young people activity groups sponsored by the Church of England outside church worship.
Church of England congregations give more than 51.7 million each year to other charities - that's even more than the BBC's annual Children in Need appeal.
More than half a million worshippers subscribe to tax-efficient giving schemes such as Gift Aid, accounting for half the voluntary income of parish churches.
Church buildings
Nearly half the population (46%) think that central taxation, local taxation, the National Lottery or English Heritage should be 'primarily' responsible for providing money to maintain churches and chapels. These churches and cathedrals are largely supported by the efforts and financial support of local communities. Often, they are the focus of community life and service.
There are 14,500 places of worship in England listed for their special architectural or historic interest, 85% of which belong to and are maintained by the Church of England.
The Church of England has more than 16,000 churches, serving every inch of the country and open to every local inhabitant. There are 42 mainland cathedrals, plus one in Peel on the Isle of Man and the Diocese in Europe's cathedral in Gibraltar.
People value their local church and 68% consider it an important part of their local community. Those who consider churches important include 45% of people with no religion and 62% of adherents of other faiths. 70% believe it provides valuable social and community facilities and 57% believe it should be more actively involved in the local community.
Three church and cathedral locations are World Heritage Sites: Durham Castle and Cathedral, Canterbury Cathedral, St Augustine's Abbey & St Martin's Church, and Westminster Abbey and St Margaret's Church.
In 2006, necessary repairs to all listed places of worship in England were valued at 925m over the next five years, or 185m a year. Around 110 million is currently spent on repairs to Church of England churches per annum, 70% of it raised by the congregations and local community.


Sources:

Church Statistics 2003/4, 2004/5, 2006/7, 2007/8 and 2008/9



Opinion Research Business national polls 2000-2009

English Heritage and Church of England Cathedral and Church Buildings Division Joint Research 2006



Church Life Survey 2001

So that should have been the best day of the year that made every one happy at about 6pm.
Yep a great day for me. It was true.





http://youtu.be/4a5vaIsaxB8

Thats what you need to reach a right old age. Our village has just congradulated a man called George Assinder entering his 107th year to become britains 10th oldest man.
All down to being happy and a favourite beer a day (Carlsberg)
We should all be happy with what we have. Well done George.

The Independent on Sunday says Gordon Brown has "broken his silence" and blamed Angela Merkel and Nicholas Sarkozy for Europe's economic woes.

In an article for the paper, the former prime minister says the eurozone leaders ignored his warnings over their banks' debt levels.

Dreams.

I believe the Vatican State is an independent state and therefore in general can rule for itself its own accounts when or if it feels it necessary.

Although it would be interesting to see them.

=======

Exec,

I knew that I would eventually be able to convert you with a little helpful direction.

=======

Hays,

"Morality can easily be taught in school without religion. Morality is only what is convenient for society."


I believe the Fascists in Germany attempted to "indoctrinate" and instil "morality" in the schools from 1930-1945. Thankfully, for the majority of Europe, the morality instilled had a transient effect. But for a period that it was "taught" it was "believed" to be advantageous to the elite and the "state" at that time.

A "state" taught morality may have greater dangers than a variable "morality" handed down through varying cultures within a society.

The various cultures or religions buffeting each other may be more conducive to a fairer and more advancing society.

Don't know, but I find it interesting to reflect the changing moral stances one makes from childhood to old age and also that society does through different periods.

Think of attitudes to abortion, euthanasia. Morality as you wrote seems flexible, but should it be.

Did Salesman, Steven Nott, start off newspapers phone hacking celebrities and others for their stories? He thinks he may well have done just that.

Phone-hacking whistleblower Steven Nott went unheard
By Matt Prodger
Home affairs correspondent
6 August 2011 Last updated at 15:37


Mr Nott said he was "gobsmacked" that anyone could access his mobile phone

Twelve years ago, Welsh salesman Steven Nott pulled over at a motorway services in something of a panic.

He had been without a mobile phone signal for hours because the network was down, and he could not access the voicemail messages that were essential for him to do his job.

So he rang his supplier, Vodafone, on a landline at the services, and was astonished to be told he could access all his voicemails simply by tapping in a default pin number. And so, for that matter, could anyone else.

He says he was "gobsmacked", and shortly after the incident, in 1999, complained not only to Vodafone but took his story to his local newspaper, and to the police.

The South Wales Argus ran the story under the headline "Sales boss reveals security problem".

'So stupid'

In words eerily prescient of the phone-hacking scandal, which was to erupt years later, he told the paper: "Vodafone has millions of users, and many of them will be MPs and high-ranking government officials, people with highly sensitive information at their fingertips.

"Unauthorised accessing of someone's message service is on a par with tampering with their mail."

But Vodafone was slow to act. The company did not address the issue for some years. In the meantime, Mr Nott was, by his own admission, becoming obsessed by what he had discovered.

He telephoned the Daily Mirror, hoping to give them a scoop that they would splash across their pages, alerting other phone users to the vulnerability of their mobiles to hacking.

He says that over a period of several days he spoke to somebody on the paper's newsdesk, who was excited by the story.

Mr Nott claims the Mirror said they were planning to run a piece about how celebrities' phones could be hacked.

I'm appalled because I really do seriously think I may have inadvertently started this in the early days

Steven Nott

He says they told him they had "everybody on to it" as they had a massive bank of phone numbers and were ringing everyone to see how they would react to news their mobiles could be tampered with.

But the Mirror never published the story. Mr Nott says the newspaper did, however, pay him 100.

The owner of the Mirror, Trinity Mirror, said on Saturday: "We are not going to dignify this with a comment."

Next, Mr Nott took his story to the offices of the Sun in Wapping, where he met Paul Crosbie, who was then the newspaper's consumer affairs correspondent.

Mr Crosbie now works in PR, but he confirmed to the BBC Mr Nott's account of his visit.

"I did meet Steven, was surprised by what he'd discovered. I'd never heard of it before he came to the office," he said.

"I wrote up what I thought was a very good story, but it never ran. There was only room for a certain number of stories in the Sun, so a lot did get spiked for whatever reason."

Campaign backfires

By this time Mr Nott said he was regretting his actions.

"It didn't take me long to realise what I had done. I couldn't believe I was so stupid to tell a national newspaper how to get hot news for free just by hacking into someone's phone," he said.

"I was on a campaign to raise public awareness and it was backfiring."

Mr Crosbie said: "I don't know whether the information he gave me led to today's events. I only know that I wasn't asked to demonstrate the flaws to anyone."

News International, the publisher of the Sun, declined to comment.

Steven Nott does not claim to be the first person to discover how easy it was to hack a person's mobile phone.

But he does believe he was the first to try to bring it to the attention of the wider public by telling journalists about it. He says he did not anticipate that journalists would use the technique themselves.

"I'm appalled because I really do seriously think I may have inadvertently started this in the early days," he said.

Last month detectives from Operation Weeting, who are investigating the phone-hacking scandal at the News of the World, travelled to Wales to interview Mr Nott.

The above was taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14431473

.

Fred
Morality is taught in schools now. My kids and many others with no religious affiliation have morailty taught to them at school and at home. Religion does not feature in their lives in any way except as a source of amusement.

Fred, I do not think you would be able to see them. I bet they are hidden in vaults, well out of view of the public.

Haystack

"Morality is taught in schools now. My kids and many others with no religious affiliation have morailty taught to them at school...."

I find that quite interesting.

Can you post up any kind of an example?

I m not sure what you mean by "Can you post up any kind of an example?"

The post was a reply to Fred's silly post: -

Hays,

"Morality can easily be taught in school without religion. Morality is only what is convenient for society."

I believe the Fascists in Germany attempted to "indoctrinate" and instil "morality" in the schools from 1930-1945. Thankfully, for the majority of Europe, the morality instilled had a transient effect. But for a period that it was "taught" it was "believed" to be advantageous to the elite and the "state" at that time.

From the Police Inspector Blog

Tottenham A warning for the future.
August 7, 2011 by inspectorgadget


"....Constant abuse from the media about police officers being paid overtime, the lies about our gold-plated pensions, the extreme danger of dismissal or disciplinary action faced by any police officer who even looks the wrong way at certain members of society (no matter what they are doing) and the huge potential cuts in our wages will have an effect. We cannot strike but we dont have to volunteer to come in when we are off duty either.

But I also know how many home telephones were left unanswered last night all over the Home Counties.

......Summer 2011 could be the time when at last the private sector see for themselves just how much public sector provision in Britain relies upon good will and loyalty. Both of those principles demand reciprocation,...."

mnamreh

I agree.

He hasn't had much luck with the job's he has been after , funny that considering he saved the World .

Fred want's him to come back to sort out the mess he created in this country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iPaiylUYW0

Haystack

"Morality is taught in schools now. My kids and many others with no religious affiliation have morailty taught to them at school...."

Sorry. I'll re-phrase my question.

You say that Morality is taught in school and specifically, that it is taught in your kids' school to your kids.

As an example, can you provide an example of the sort of morality teaching that your kids are receiving from their school?

Is it say given to the kids as a written set of social rules to follow - and if so what are they?

You also say that religion does not feature in their lives in any way, except as a source of amusement.

When i was being educated as a 'senior student' I used to go to 'General Studies', where we would usually debate a topic of political or other type of interest. Is this the kind of teaching you are referring to, where the teacher merely guides the kids own debate?

I don't know whether your kids are infants, juniors, seniors or of university age. But by other than your good self, I wondered if they are taught to scorn religion at 'school' and deal only with reality and real kinds of stuff and to strip out mysticism from such situations and then on this basis, think things out for themselves? (Which is pretty much what my wife and I taught our own kids)

By the way, I think we succeeded to some extent, in that neither one of them has ever smoked tobacco or touched any kinds of soft or hard drugs. We know that 'they would say that to us, anyway' but when they do, they are pretty damn convincing.