Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Well if were going back a few years I dont know why Labour dont point back to the Thatcher era and the development of the Service sector and Banking in general and the loss of manufacturing ie, engineering and allied industry centered around the Coal mines.

Thats the REAL LEGACY we are fighting today and lets not forget the birth of the 'latch door key kid' in that era, those who are spawing the feral youth of today.

The conservatives should stop blaming labour and accept responsibility themselves if we are to get out of this mess.

Im a floating voter but can see myself turning back to labour if the conservatives continue to attack the most vunerable in society and let the top knobs off scott free.

The Thatcher era wasn't a few years ago , and it was the militant union's that destroyed the car industry , and the dockers were always on strike , the Coal industry was being subsidised by the tax payer because they were uncompetitive in the World market.

Remember the winter of discontent under Labour ? 24% inflation , the pound being devalued.



The feral youth of today, are the result of Labour's P C brigade's law's on slapping kid's ,
not giving the Police, teaches and the Courts the power to punish and discipline them.

And Labour's signing up to the human right's act and its failing to stand up for our interests in the EU , resulting in mass uncontrolled emigration from not just the EU but from around the World .

Fred may well want a left-wing government, but Spain is an example of what a left wing government leaves behind when it taxes amd spends and then borrows and spends. Spain has now hit the 7% 10 year bond level and has the highest unemployment at 21.1%. One million people are in danger of losing their homes.

The elections today are likely to elect a more right-wing government which has campaigned on a platform of austerity measures, cuts in public spending etc. The people seem to want this instead of the current laissez faire attitude of the lefties.

It will be interesting to see how much of a majority the anti-left party gets.

We are lucky that we already have a suitable government that is willing to do the right thing. That might account for the fact that we can sell 10 year bonds for not much more than 2%.

the cheek of that lunatic hesletine we will join the euro .
he gets millions from the EU in land subsides and cameron .
should cameron resign with conflict of interest in the EU .
this gov is more corupt than the lab . time for a civil war here like the arab spring

.

Hays,

"Fred may well want a left-wing government, but Spain is an example of what a left wing government leaves behind"

No, I don't want a left-wing government, but I would like a "moderate" government respectful of the needs of society as a whole. As far as the failures of previous left leaning socialist governments are concerned, I think, in general they have done much more than the present, or recent tory government for UK society as a whole, as far as education, legal representation, medical and social care, etc.,. These last four items seem to have become "dirty words" with the elitist right wing, who are now in control.

(I may have more respect for them as a group, if I didn't consider them to be often "lying between their teeth". )

Having friends and family members who have lived under said "Communist state", with all its failures a little experience of living under such a regime, I would not think it very different in many ways. Those in control having the same "elitist" positioning and certainties as some on the right have in this country. Their main focus in life seemed to be maintaining themselves in positions of "authority" and comfort, with little respect of others. (There are many parallels in the M.E. to what may or have happened here.)

As far as Spain is concerned, in spite of present difficulties I think few would like to bring back the "right winged" fascist regime of Franco, when many were starving to death or "shot" for not being "civil" to their masters and asking for more than they deserved.

=========

Aids

You mention inflation and consider the devaluation of the sterling since the tories came into power. If you haven't notice, have a look at the value of the Sterling against the dollar since the tories came into power. That is a better estimate of things to come..

As far as human rights are concerned, I would respect the European Court of Human Rights opinions, far more highly than a the opinions of a bunch from the tory right wing, the BNP, or UKIP, who are considering what is right. (Right for them, or what they think is right.) They have their right to their opinions and they should be considered.) I was going to add before being shot, but I wont.)

The free market has its place as long as it is not turn into the market of Privateers or Pirates, that is why international regulation is necessary.

---------------------

In general, Unions bashing, is the action of those who have no better arguments.

I think, that there was a mad period in the unions, with poor or extreme leadership during the late 1960s and early 1970s, and many like Gunter and other more moderate socialists were frustrated by the stupidity of their actions, (One of the problems with leadership, is who they are leading and against whom they are leading the followers.

At present, I think, in general the majority or the unions in the UK seem led by moderates by a more moderate leadership, who with the advances in communications are able to present their arguments more coherently and often exposing the hypocrisy of this present government.

My guess is that the public seeing some of the irrational and disproportionate cuts in the Health, Social Services and Education will sympathise with and support the unions in New Winter of Discontent".

Especially, with those members of society who have children wishing to go on to further education, have family members who need medical care or elderly family members who need outside support, becoming aware of the consequences of the propose actions.

Also, many of those who are having to look for work at both end of the age scale in order to support themselves and families.

I could be wrong, but many of my guesses have proved to be right.

=========================

N,

You don't have to write about me like your last comment.

The German finance minister, Schauble, has said that we will have to join the Euro whether we like it or not. They are now instructing us to let in another wave of immigrants. The Germans told the Greeks that they were not allowed to have a referendum and to get rid of their prime minister. They are still intent on destroying the City of London by forcing us to introduce a tax on transactions that will destroy it, one that has been tried in Sweden but had to be dropped after the trading in shares on its exchange moved to London. Now we read that that details of a secret German plan to build a powerful new economic government for the Eurozone and block an EU referendum in our country We were nearly too late to stop Hitler, they are at it again we need to stop them now. That is not counting the stupidity of telling us that we can't say that drinking water stops dehydration.


It was all in yesterday's Express.

Goldfinger,

I was born and raised in a Nottinghamshire village, surrounded by coal mines.
Many of my friends left school to take jobs down the pit, and often used to talk about their wages and the working day.
Many times in our local pub, I listened to tales of good money (far more than I was earning) being earned for spending less than 3 hours per day on the coal face. My mates often used to say that more time was spent getting ready to go down the pit, traveling there and back, then showering etc than doing the actual job.
Whilst appreciating they should be paid for all the above, it used to annoy me when they would brag about how they could stretch getting dress ready over 30 mins and the same for showering.
The stories of stretching the none coal face time was legendary, with almost a competitive nature.
I well remember that during the miners strike, figures of coal production from other countries, with a far more antiquated coal production method than ours, easily beat our production figures.
So whilst agreeing that Maggie was not always right, in the case of the miners, the antiquated working practices made them none competitive, which resulted in a huge amount of imported coal being used for heating and eclectic generation.
I don't have any figures for the yearly subsidy of the UK coal industry, but I do remember they were huge.
If Scargill who at the time was being paid more than any other union leader had agreed to modernise, then we would still have a coal industry of far bigger proportions than we have today.

As to the Conservatives still blaming Labour, remember that Labour even in their last year of office, some 13 years after the Conservatives were in government were still blaming the last Conservative government for things going wrong.
So whilst I myself am not happy with this government as I feel they are all talk and no action, I feel that they can still legitimately blame the last Labour government for most things quite a while yet.
The mess that Labour left has still not been fully realised.

regards Greek.

Tim.

OK. Referendum. Vote UK out of the EU. and then what for the economy?

Of course, Fortress England and the Empire.


Of course. Scotland, Ireland and Wales devolved and in the EU.

Of course all those Angles, and Sexons etc, should go home.

Bloody foreigners!

Greek,

In my youth I worked underground, but I don't recognise the practices you describe.

We clocked on after changing and clocked off after returning our lamps before showering.#

One of the main reasons for uneconomic pits in the UK was down to geological conditions and width of seams.

Many such pits, were worked out in the world coal economics at that period, unprofitable and had to be subsidised to prevent massive unemployment which may have led to "social" instability.

Governments after WW2 had chances to prepare for the demise of the British Coal Industry, but duck their responsibilities.

Private enterprise did not step in to resolve the problem.


============

I observe the coal industry from more than two sides.

---------

My father was once asked by a self righteous "friend", why the miners only worked 4 days a week, instead of the full 5 days a week.

His reply was because they couldn't support themselves and families on three days and whether their friend would wish to go down the "hole" unless they had to.

-===

PS>

Greek,

Advice to this government should be; "When you are digging a hole and it starts flooding, stop digging and start thinking".

Blaming your parents for your own drowning, is not the answer.

.

Michael Richards, better known as Kramer from TVs Seinfeld does make a good point. This was his defense speech in court after making racial comments in his comedy act. He makes some very interesting points...

There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc. And then there are just Americans.

You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You call me 'White boy,' 'Cracker,' 'Honkey,' 'Whitey,' 'Caveman'... and that's OK..

But when I call you, Ni**er, Coon, Towel Head, Camel Jockey, Beaner, Gook, Paki, or Chink . you call me a racist.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you... so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?

You have the United Negro College Fund. You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month. You have Cesar Chavez Day. You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.
You have the NAACP. You have BET....


If we had WET (White Entertainment Television), we'd be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.
If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.
If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives, we'd be racists.

We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that??

A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.

If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships... You know - we'd be racists.
There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US .. Yet if there were 'White Colleges', that would be a racist college.

In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.

You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

I am proud.... But you call me a racist.

Why is it that only whites can be racists??


There is nothing improper about this e-mail.. Let's see which of you are proud enough to send it on. I sadly don't think many will. That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves!

.

What about a Heterosexual pride parade in Brighton every year ? and signing a petition to change the name of Dike road in Brighton.

mnamreh

How many black wives or girl friends have you had , if not why. If your Gay sorry for asking ...... lol

Tim,

"That's why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won't stand up for ourselves!"


Just as a matter of interest what do you mean by ourselves?

Strikes me that you are seeing yourself a member of a different group from others around you,

====================

Are you perhaps suggesting, others are inferior or superior to another race or races and therefore it is alright to be prejudiced, discriminate or be antagonistic against?

============

I must admit the uproar around the use of language to identify an individual
when in friendly banter seems absurd to me, except when it is deliberately denigrating, or inciting mob behaviour.

When I was young, I describe a player as like a b. greyhound.

I was inferring that he ran as fast as a greyhound (leaving me behind) and not that he looked like one.

He was very thin and rangy and didnt like it, when my remark was repeated to him.

I dont know, but sometimes I think some are becoming too precious.
============

But, perhaps once again, I am one of the others.

This is me,

I for one have already sent it on to several people.

As to Michael Richards comments that got him into trouble, I have no idea what they were so can't judge.

As to myself, as many know, I was a Police Officer for over 25 years and have come across more racism against me than I can list, but I must mention 1 incident.

As a Police Officer in Humberside, I mainly worked in the north of the county which had a 'very low' number of immigrants, especially during my first few years service.
I had been a Police Officer for around 5 years when I was directed to a street disturbance in Bridlington.
On arrival several youths were fighting.
After parting these youths, one of them, the only black youth of the group would not listen to any warnings from myself and just wanted to continue to fight.
After a final warning, he was arrested.
Immediately he accused me of racism. I remember his words even after all these years, as I have heard them repeated many times.
He said, " Your only arresting me because I'm black".
My reply was, "No, I'm arresting you because you won't listen to reason".
He later made a formal complaint of racism.

Although at the time he was the first black person I had ever arrested, I was investigated for racism and left with the impression that I could have perhaps given him another warning before considering an arrest.
If I had been a probationer (less than 2 years service) I would have been very wary of arresting him as during those first 2 years I could have been dismissed 'without reason'.
I know that the accusations aimed at the Police that they are more likely to pick on none whites to arrest is rubbish.
It is far more likely that they give these people that bit more leeway, as many Police Officers feel that 'It just isn't worth the hassle'.

Edte..........I must add that I do accept there are racist elements in the Police like all organisations, but it is in the minority!

.

N,

It is obvious to me that the majority of us make judgements about each other and discriminate against each other and I certainly attempt to. Sometimes I try to rationalise my conclusions and revalue them, sometimes ending up thinking differently, but feeling as previous.

As usual, when I am confused I resort to the dictionary, in order to try to understand why I am confused about and doing so, found one definition of prejudice as : an unjust or prejudicial distinction.

I think, it is when the prejudicial distinction leads to a unwarranted prejudicial action to another person, group or body, that discrimination is dangerous and then should be considered reprehensible.

I think this could be applied to so called racist remarks.

(edited.)