Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

You can trust me. I used to be the Deputy Mayor.

Mnamreh,

You say, 'Greek - if you (and they) know populations won't 'stand for it', why would it still be considered?

If you look at Greece as one example. It has been imposed on them by the EU that their own government have little to no power on any Greek fiscal policy, so the EU went a step further than considering.
If you look at the way this has gone down in Greece, they are definitely 'not standing for it', and the violence we are seeing there, will get much worse.
If we as a country had a referendum on leaving the EU and the vote was carried, the EU have already stated, that once a country has signed into the pact, there is no mechanism for them to leave, so 'We would not be allowed to leave'
I doubt very much that we would stand for that.
Most dictatorships, and that is how I would class the EU, have through history considered just how far they can go, and we all know the final outcomes.
So they will consider pushing until they can push no more and then finally admit defeat.
So in answer to your question, Just because something is bound to fail, does not mean it won't be considered.
Also I did not say that the politicians know we won't stand for it, as I believe some of them do, just that I know the populous won't.

2517,

I worked underground for short periods only (university vacations) and that was over 50 years ago.

My father worked for over fifty years in the mining industry. When he was six years old, his father who was another miner died/killed at the age of approximately thirty five years of age

My father left school at 12 years of age and started to working in the mining industry. I won't go into the details, but he obtained his qualifications to act as a colliery manager before he was 21years of age.

Subsequent to that, he worked as an official and colliery manager, for approximately thirty years he was a colliery manager of one of the few profitable pits in the UK. (He also paid some of the highest wages in the country.) (Even under Nationalisation of the Mines) (He didnt have a strike in his last thirty years.)

So, you are perfectly correct I have a bias, which I am well aware of.

The unions, with all their mistakes, were responsible for the improvement in working and health and safety issues (conditions) in the mining and other heavy industries. They were also responsible for improvement in training and improvement in wages, health care and recognition of human rights and dignity.

The relationship in the mining industry between the employers and workforce prior to WW2 were appalling and bear relationship to some views posted on this thread.

The attitudes belonged to that of a lauded traditional society, simply put born to rule. Remember your place. (You are a labourer and your children will be labourers.) (or, you dont know what you are talking about and your opinions dont count etc.)

Unfortunately, because the leadership of the unions had experience the above and other insults, they had developed a rather jaundiced view of some management, (all management) and this effected their negotiation stances.

Therefore, I have awareness of both sides of the coin, i.e. management on workforce.

Also, because of my own professional background exposure and experience appreciate some of the difficulties of both sides.

However, I think the majority of union leadership is now moderate when compared with previous periods, but some of the political leadership (through ignorance), has reverted to Remember your place, etc. once again.

I dont think that the UK population, as a whole, will accept the present the governments policies, when a large portion of them becomes directly affected. I dont want a disharmonious society with its consequences.

Personally, I think I am insulated from the majority of the present economic problems, but less happy about my grandchildrens futures.

I believe in a mixed economy with a thought-out regulated economy, but, I think this, has to include some further redistribution of wealth, equality of expectation and rights, with support for the more inept in society.

I am not a member of any political party (they wouldnt have me), but I think the policies of this coalition party are disastrous and the anti-European rhetoric is naive.

Ps.

I don't know if I have written this before. however, I would like to see the financial accounts of many of Farage and the others phobics.

As Cameron should know, "friend" of to-day, may be the liabilities of to-morrow.

.

.

Somebody, mentioned that we should "withdraw" from the various parts of the EU and trade more with the rest of the world.

I may be wrong. but I don't know of any EU restriction on the UK trading with the rest of the World. (Other than the bright ideas about Iran.) So why don't we.

(Not too many answers please.)

-----------------


Glad to see the coalition is on top of immigration.

Only drop in numbers seems to be students, that should help the University and UK finances.

Success!!!!!!!!!
-------------------

From UK-Analyst.com: Thursday 24th November 2011



The Markets

German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Nicolas Sarkozy are to put forward modifications of EU treaties to improve governance of the eurozone. The leaders hope the proposal would lead to further financial integration and convergence, improving confidence. France and Germany do however disagree about whether the European Central Bank should be a lender of last resort and whether bonds should be issued by the whole of the eurozone instead of individual countries. Meanwhile, for the first time in two and half years, the UK 10-year bond yield fell below the German 10-year, standing 0.02 percentage points lower than its counterpart at 2.21%. It came as Germany failed to raise its 6 billion euro (5.16 billion pound) target at the latest bond auction, managing just 3.6 billion euros (3.09 million pounds).

Fred1new, ---thanks for your reply, I agree the unions were responsible for making not just miners working lives better but workers in a whole host of industries as well. However union leaders imo now regard themselves to be on a similar standing as that of top management, and with salary, expenses and privilege to match. The rank and file worker from whatever industry can only dream of such salaries, salaries which the union leaders will continue to receive whilst those on strike will lose part of theirs.

The private sector in the main has a by far inferior pension to that of the public sector, yet it is they that pay for the public sector pensions. So maybe like the vast majority of the electorate (perhaps), we cannot understand why Cameron has ringfenced money going to foreign aid whilst we are struggling, the same applies to private sector employees, ie why should I pay so much towards the public sector pensions when I cannot receive anything like the same for myself.

I also agree that a transfer of wealth is needed, I forget the current estimate but the saying '90% of the wealth of the country is held by 10% of the people, Whilst 90% of the people hold just 10% of the wealth'. You only have to look at the obscene pay rises over the last 12 months for CEO's and directors etc. to recognise that.
Crikey Fred, that's twice I have agreed with you, I'll try not to let it happen again ha! ha!
2517

It is understandable that there is this anti cameron/ Osbourne 'governmet' feeling,especialy the current hostility from the right wing newspapers led by the torygraph and fueled by the minor back bench tories who due to this being a coalition do not have the government posts that they covet.
The point is the tories did not win the election and to hold government they have to do what the libs allow. This is not a conservative cabinet and whoever had been tory leader at the last election would be suffering the same as the current leaders are now.

2517,

I will try and answer some of your points and add more later.

But I think that part of the reasoning for the "majority" of "low paid" workers being in the Public sectors, was that they saw their pensions and security of employment as part of their overall remuneration.

When the figures for these outrageous public service pensions are considered, I think you have to consider mean, median and lowest figures.

But I do consider the recent pay, severance pays and pensions of the higher paid public servants as extraordinary and open to question.

As far as union leaders pay is concern, one has to consider the number of individuals they represent and I suppose relate them to the income of the individuals they represent.

But again out of proportion.

But so have been some of the pension funds of our underpaid company board members.(sorry overpaid) .who utiilise them to dodge tax.

I utilised the latter myself to a minor degree.

I think the way the government presents figures is as reliable as a Goebbels' propaganda machine.

I enjoyed that! 8-)

-

mnamreh

I don't know what the hell you are talking about , can you please copy & paste what post you are referring to .

Just one other point.

How many of the posters on this board would work as "dustbin men", (sorry "refuge workers") or "sewerage" workers for their glorious pensions.

Those poor b.s keep society ticking over.

.

I would , I done harder and messier job's then dustmen but would drew the line at sewerage.

The miners unions were responsible for the destruction of the mining industry, British car companies and a large part of our once great manufacturing industry.

The problem with public sector pensions goes back a few decades. When I was president of the local branch of a public sector union the government was taking far more off our salaries in pension contributions than they were paying out in pensions. We did not ask for a reduction in contributions, instead we were agitating for the pensions to be a proper funded scheme, but the government steadfastly refused and just spent the money. Now our present government is trying to get that money back by taking it off those who have already paid more than they should have in the past. We could see what was likely to happen in the future.

mnamreh

I was referring to this in my post. http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/profile-ernest-saunders-out-of-jail-and-back-in-business-1347932.html

.

mnamreh

Cheer's , I have never read that account of his appeal before in detail , interesting to know if you have a small brain you can get out of prison early lol

TIM.

The majority of the coal pits were on borrowed time before being Nationalised in 1946.

A large percentage of them were "worked out" and unprofitable.

Those pits were subsidised by the profitable ones and the "state" taxes.

One of the problems was that much of the management in the nationalised industry, were the pupils of the appalling managers, agents area managers inherited from the previously "private company management teams

Another problem was the attempt to over mechanise some pits when geological conditions were unsuitable.

(Would suggest you do a little research into that period.)

The problems with other "heavy" industry, was that many were using worn out plant of bygone ages and that there was distrust by the "work forces" of once again management, who hadn't it their opinions earned it.

One of the reasons for the Nationalisation was if it hadn't happen, there would have be mass unemployment and the ongoing promise a "country for heroes" expectation. There were fears of "social upheavals".

Please don't try to tell me about the Bevin Boys.

It was inevitable that the number of pits needed to be reduced to those profitable.

But the manner in which the "Witch" Thatcher did it, was inhumane and that and many of her other actions led to a country at "war" with itself.

The closures could have been over a more prolonged period allowing for retraining, refocussing and assimilation of those who were made unemployed.

Rather than producing a lost "generation" who felt disenfranchised. Their children still have that "grudge".

I won't question your experiences as an union representative, but I have equivalent to a public service pension and can't recall having difficulties like you describe.

But if you are reflecting on my previous remarks on public service pensions, then I think my position remains the same.