Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Execline,

How dare you. That's an ex of mine and I'm under there somewhere. You can't beat it with the lights out. You should have seen her before the Atkins diet.

You could park 2 bikes on that one, Greek!

bet you have to have the stereo turned up loud!!!

Alex

Thanks a lot greekman ,i didn't think she'd ever been unfaithful

oblomov ,i'm down on the south Coast, Hastings at the moment.

Hi Jimmy,

Didn't see you under there, but it was dark.

The thought police are back for 2008.
This time in the form of J D Wetherspoons.
Upfront and honest, I have 3 kids. Little swines, each and every one, but I do like to go for a meal as a family. Not usually to a JD wetherspoons though. Now this family pastime is under attack..................
This wonderful pub chain has announced that adults with kids can come for a meal, but are expected to eat up and clear off.
Lovely quotes include, "children are economically viable", "one drink with your meal and one drimk (preferably coffee) after and then you must go" "It is not a wonderful day out for children spending hours in the pub."
"We would not want a situation where the child is there for two or three hours."
Well Mr Wetherspoon. I know what is best for my kids and I will take them where I like. You do the same with yours. I have never been a fan of kids going into pubs, and I understand your concerns, but people in the great British pub, telling others how to raise their kids, have a history of getting the thick end of a pool cue out of their ears in casualty, and I support that too.
What i cannot support is someone saying, "come along and spend your money. Your money is welcome, you and your brood are not".

Sorry to clog the boards up again, but.........
Imagine working in the fashion industry and one day your colleagues annonce that for the following season, nothing red will sell. It is as fashionable as a Reliant Robin. You then go out and order every scrap of red material the planet produces. Someone would be at the dole office by the end of the day.
Of course it could never happen in industry. You need a government for that kind of cock up. Enter the Labour party.
I hazily recall an announcement last year that immigrants to the UK would have to prove a reasonable level of English before being accepted. Good idea.
Today I read of massive investment proposed by John Denham to teach English at a basic level to new immigrants...........free. This is to ensure cohesion and understanding in communities.
Hmmm. May I respectfully suggest to Mr Denham that he scales this down to a trial basis and starts with a community that clearly cannot communicate with each other in any meaningful way. The Government perhaps.

Gotta say I'm with Mr Wetherspoon on that one, Alan, though I'd go the whole hog and return to a ban on kids in pubs.

I'm all for human rights, but I'm also for my own human rights and others like me who have had evenings ruined by unruly kids. I dont go to pubs as much as I used to for that very reason. I've been to expensive pub/restaurants, paid �40-50 a head and had the experience totally ruined because parents seem to think it a god-given right to let their children run riot and do exactly what they want with no thought for anyone else.

If I were Mr Wetherspoon and unruly families were keeping possibly more profitable customers away I'd do the same.

And as for telling others how to raise kids - its about time someone did because a large percentage of todays parents haven't got a clue. In the past 30 years we've had to suffer an ever-increasing degree of delinquency in successive generations to the point where 13-20 year olds now commit most of our crime,17 -24 year-olds cause the most road accidents, our streets are full of kids only too happy to pull a knife or gun on you at the slightest provocation and downtown areas are a no-go on a saturday night because they're full of druggies and paralytic teenagers fighting and vomiting.

What is really worrying is that whenever anyone speaks out against it or tries to do something, parents object and defend the right to bring their children up as barbarians, and inflict their bad behaviour on others into the bargain!

And

'but people in the great British pub, telling others how to raise their kids, have a history of getting the thick end of a pool cue out of their ears in casualty, and I support that too.'

Perhaps you're the sort of person Mr Wetherspoon seeks to discourage, Alan, if you support that.

What i support, Oblo, is my right to choose how I bring my kids up. After all, I will be held responsible for the results!!
If anyone in a pub is unruly and spoiling the enjoyment of others, then fine, kick 'em out, be they 8 or 80, but lets not see a sweeping statement on a particular customer type. Would the same support be offered if the statement contained, not the word children, but the word black, gay, non Christian etc. etc.?
Would the downtown be full of drunken idiots if they had been taught how to enjoy the atmosphere of a bar sensibly??
What we must remember is that the same people who are very keen to tell me what I can and cannot do with my kids are the very same ones who also threaten me with criminal action should my kids misbehave. Unreasonable.
If i am responsible for the actions of my children, then surely I am responsible for deciding how to mold that behaviour. If I am to be dictated to on how I can punish or reward my children, then the one dictating must surely be responsible for their behaviour. The problem is that the thought police want it both ways.
For instance, if my kids knock school, I will be fined and / or imprisoned. yet my hands are tied in my choice of punishments, if the thought police get their way.
I want to be able, as a responsible parent, to take my kids out for Sunday Lunch, and enjoy a family chat around the table afterwards. That causes no problem to anyone, and I am offended that I will be told to go home.
Just as I avoid boozers that have noisy jukeboxes and electric beerpumps, anyone may choose to avoid pubs with familys of rowdy kids.
However, if I cannot enjoy that simple pleasure, and my kids never learn from me the standard of behaviour acceptable in a pub, then please do not blame me in 10 years time when my son walks home from the pub, totally incapacitated, singing Bohemian Rhapsody to wake you up and pisses in your front garden, because it will be the fault of Mr Wetherspoon and his Ilk.

Alan, you do not have a right to decide how to bring your children up - you live in a society and have obligations to others in that society to bring your children up to respect others in the society and to respect the law.

Nobody has the right to bring their children up to be dishonest, violent, inconsiderate or in any way anti-social - yet thats what many do.

If Mr Wetherspoon has decided that there is a problem (and I'm sure he is in a better position than either you or I to judge) then I think we should respect him for trying to do something about it to protect the enjoyment of the majority of his customers, who do not behave in anti-social ways. He wouldn't have bought in these measures for the fun of it - there must be a problem.

Unfortunately, as in many areas of life where action is necessary to curb anti-social behaviour, some innocent people will be inconvenienced and suffer as well. I don't know you personally, but I'm willing to accept that you are one of the innocent - i.e. that you and your children's behaviour is impeccable in public places. (Mind you, your comment about the pool cue makes me wonder!) If you are one of the 'innocents', I don't quite understand where your argument is coming from - it's people like you Mr Wetherspoon is trying to protect.

Parents who let their children run riot in pubs and other places and generally ruin other peoples enjoyment (and I see it all the time) run the risk that those children will grow into teenagers who believe it is acceptable behaviour and then adults with the same ideology - and that, unfortunately, is what we are seeing everyday.

Look at this - news released since our posts this morning. How much longer is society going to think it OK to raise children with behaviour no better than barbarians?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/05/nstab105.xml

1st rant of the year - enjoyed it!

The pool cue was something of a lighthearted joke, Oblo.
With that out of the way, I find it part of the sytematic stigmatisation of myself, and many more like me. They are not protecting the innocent, they are penalising them rather than concentrating on the problem.
My children are not angels. Far from it and I would worry if they were (they might end up posting on betterdrivingplease.com). But taking the action he has is tantamount to saying that all families cause mayhem on his premises. I take umbrage with this. Please note his argument is not economic. His argument is that it is no fun for kids, and his pubs have no play areas. Fine. I am unlikely to go then. But it is the sort of person who says what kids should and shouldn't do, and how parents should bring them up that has masterminded the downfall of public behaviour.
Yes, I am part of a society, but it is one that increasingly holds me responsible for my childrens behaviour ( or would if it were a problem). Therefore I demand the right to control, within reason, that for which I am responsible. One would hardly prosecute a passenger for the driver speeding!! And yet, every day I read of anti-smacking lobbies and childcare experts declaiming all forms of punishment. Now I read of a publican who doesn't want those under 18 on his premises, but who will demand impeccable behaviour when this particular pandoras box is opened up to them. When they have no idea of the acceptable standards on licensed premises, he will gleefully attack the very parents who he prevented from introducing these youths to bars in a controlled and supervised manner.
And therein lies the general thrust. The society I am part of is ruled by a liberal elite of academics who may be able to repeat verbatim the entire 600 pages of the latest empirical study of child behaviour, but have the common sense of a concussed duckling.
Not just in the area of childcare, but in all areas.
I was told by a childcare expert (during my days as a foster parent) that any child who kicks off screaming in a supermarket should be bought a Mars bar to shut them up. Amazing!! We should reward such behaviour and therefore make sure it happens every time!!
I am just fed up of a country where some idiot tries to control every aspect of my life. I have just got used to the idea that I am some sort of walking environmental disaster for driving to the pub in my Jag. I have just got used to the idea that I cannot smoke anywhere because of health reasons (by people who drive diesels, giving off the most carcinogenic gas ever discovered) and now I find that even if I walk there and don't smoke, my family are not welcome.
Note to Wetherspoons; When you have no families dining there on Sunday afternoons, or early evenings. When you have no smokers on a night time. What then are you going to use your pubs for? I look forward to your demise. Remember the margins on a glass of coke compared to that on a pint of beer, and when you close, don't call me.

BTW Oblo. I can recommend the Tom Cobleigh chain of "nice pubs for nice people". No jukeboxes, pool tables or fruit machines. No trouble and usually full of families with well behaved children. Perhaps they got it right?

Happy New year all -have not contributed for a while - but still read regularly.

I am looking for some advice please guys to those of you who travel extensively.

I want to take the missus to Barcelona for a long weekend in May sometime - can anyone recommend any decent (not 5*) hotels that they have stayed in ??

Cheers

'Note to Wetherspoons; When you have no families dining there on Sunday afternoons, or early evenings. When you have no smokers on a night time.'

Then I and many like me may become customers!

'the thick end of a pool cue out of their ears in casualty, and I support that too.'

A 'lighthearted joke'? I have a great respect for northern humour, but fail to see the funny side of that one!

Alan, you could talk twaddle for Britain!

Oblo, I do.....................
;-)
The licensed trade is suffering. It is suffering because it has alienated its clientele.
The mantra from friends in the licensed trade is a simple one. Wet sales are down. Dramatically. They have been for some years, due to the prices, but they have nosedived in the last 12 months or so. The pubs that have flourished are those that cater to the local needs, and offer more than a dry place for a pint!!
I am waiting for an answer to a very simple question. Why can a pub not have smoking / non smoking rooms, family / non family dining areas?
It seems very reasonable to me. I can see no reason at all why a pub should not be able to choose to operate like this, if it so wishes and if there is room.
This would ensure its place in the community and that it may serve its customer base.
Both you, and I, Oblo, could then choose where we wish to go, and in which room we wish to sit.
BTW. I do not have figures for this year, but last year, when people could choose, The Faversham pub, in the heart of Leeds University campus tried a smoking ban, in readiness for the real thing and sales were down over 60%.
I would love to see what happened at the local Toby carvery if they sent out a public message that families were really not welcome, and apart from the fact Wetherspoons are crap (Toby is not much better) I see no difference.

Re Wetherspoons ....I can see both sides of the argument, but a better way to deal with children in pubs is to be strict on behavior. The times you see parents letting their brood run riot, climbing on seats, running in/out of doors. The attitude of many parents appears to be 'go play away from us and annoy other people'. A few months ago my wife and myself were enjoying a bar meal in a quiet village pub when a family of 5 (2 so called adults and 3 kids ages about 4 to 8) came in. All 3 children were quickly abandoned by their parents to run riot. Even after a customers drink had been knocked of a table no control became evident.
After jumping up and down next to me a couple of times (I was several tables away from the parents) I told the little darlings to go and annoy their mum and dad instead of other people.
A short time later the (presumably father) came over and told me that I was not to speak to his kids as I had. I told him that if he kept his kids in some sort of control, I wouldn't have to. His reply deserved a smack in the mouth, but then I would have been in trouble.
The same goes for, noisy bad language yobs, those drinker (must say mainly women) who want everyone within 100 sq meters to know they find something hilariously funny, to those who bring small babies in that cry/scream the place down.
Yes live and let live, as long as reasonable behavior and consideration for others is the order of the day.
I would sooner sit next to a well behaved young family, and there are still plenty about, than an adult who is out of control by behavior and language without kids in tow.

Well, I was in a pub at the weekend. I popped outside for a crafty you know what, turned my head to see if anyone else was following behind as I knew the door was on a spring mechanism thing, no one there, let go of door, slam, right into the face of a I would imagine 2 year old little girl.

I don't usually check to see if people of around the 2' mark are following behind.

The way things are now, the 2 year old was probably sneaking out for a fag as well.

You echo my experiences, greek.

I've just had another thought on this. Are parents capable of controlling and looking after, ensuring the safety of, etc their children if they are over the legal limit for driving?

KEAYDIAN's story shows a specific case of neglect - the kid wasn't being supervised although in a dangerous situation. Pubs are potentially hazardous places - is it OK for parents to be drunk in charge of their kids, but not OK to be drunk in charge of a motor vehicle?

In other instances where 'carers' are looking after people, i.e. hospitals, care homes, nurseries, kindergartens, babysitters etc. it wouldn't be considered reasonable for the 'carers' to be intoxicated - so why should it be OK for parents?

Ho Oblomov,

Unless things have changed in last 5 years the specific offence of being drunk in charge of a child is limited to a child under 5 years old.
If older than 5 years the offence of neglect (harder to prove) would/could be considered, but try getting neglect cases to court. Mostly a waste of time.

Strangely enough, from 5 years old you are legally entitled to drink alcohol in a pub, providing it is not in the bar area.
Could the small child following keaydian have been slipping into the beer garden for a swift half of John Smiths???