Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

This_is_mewas I Metropolitan police?could be a different answer?beat me to it Fred

I remember when a migrant worker from Lithuania whos severed head and hands were found on a Scottish beechthe Police stated that they were treating the discovery as suspiciousloljust a guessbut I dont think it was natural causesand she wouldnt be needing Injury Lawyers for you!!what a World we live in

And not so good if you are a Brazilian plumber

This_ is_ me, I think you have watched too many Clint Eastwood films.

He thinks Dirty Harry is a porno star!

This is me,

As a retired Police Officer, I find your post very funny, but depressingly with a ring of truth.
During the end of my career I had many a run in with senior officers due to the fact, that myself and my section were very rarely allowed to use common sense.
Often a situation was calming down and starting to run smoothly when a senior officer would turn up and it would then go back down hill.

Must though take Fred1new to task. As a Trained Firearms officer I have been in a few situations were instant on the spot life and death decisions had to be made.
I would defy anyone given a possible genuine firearms incident to identify a firearm from most replicas. Even in a classroom, if someone pulled out a replica and pointed it directly at you, most would not be able within a split second to differentiate between the replica and a real firearm, and a slit second is all you get. In the cold light of day (in good daylight) a chair leg is easily identified. In the dark even a chair leg wrapped in brown paper, especially if pointed toward you could easily be mistake for a shotgun.

As for Jean Charles de Menezes (the Brazilian Plumber), obviously an almighty cock-up, but by the commanders not the Firearms Officers. If I had been given the info they received I would have done exactly as they did. If you think a person is an armed terrorist, possibly wired you just cant take a chance.
These officers will have to live with what they did.

Not having a go, but as someone who has been in such a position feel I am well qualified to give a point of view, I must admit that it does get to me when those who have not criticise those who do the job (as said but worth repeating, it was a cock-up).

In summing up. The Police Service (not allowed to call it a force now) is
in an almighty mess mainly due to it's chiefs/politicians and health and safety. For all of my service I took as little notice of all three as I could get away with.
Due to this I almost had my own chair in D+C (Discipline and Complaints).

Well said Greekman! I agree totally. Would imagine 'The Ways And Means Act' consigned to history now, pity cause it was just the application of common sense, an attribute senior officers (especially the Brams Hill Dickheads) completely lacked and as a consequence made situations worse.

The Brazilian plumber was in the country illegally, a fact most people overlook. If he had left when his visa expired he would still be fixing pipes today

Seems like a reasonable punishment.

DCB. I quite agree.
Proportionate punishment!

Of course, if I see you speeding I have your permission to shoot to kill?

The guy was harmless and sitting on a seat in an underground train.
=============

Greek,

I dont think that the police have an easy job.

Also, in general in this country, I think they carry out their responsibilities and duties in difficult times with great skill and care.
Some are occasionally more abrasive than necessary, but again when dealing with the fickle general public I can understand why.

From minor dealing, or contacts with European police, I have a similar respect of them.

However, amongst all professions there are bound to be bad pennies, who are prepared to step beyond acceptable limits.

Also, some will react to situation with less than adequate thought to consequences.

I also recognise the difficulties in making decisions in life threatening situations, but even these are not general needing reflex responses. There is usually time to assess the situation with reasonable care.

(At some time in their life, the majority of professionals and "ordinary" people in general, will have to deal with life threatening incidents in their lives and the majority of time they act appropriately. Mistakes can be made by all. )

(The police have to consider the likely danger to the public, themselves and also the person who they are apprehending.) (Danger, or damage to property, should be of lesser concern, unless damage to property will in itself endanger life.)

The force used has to be proportionate to the risk or danger.

In the majority of situations, there is time to assess the dangers before acting. I dont consider this to always be possible.

In America, it seems to me, there are peculiar problems of culture and an added problem of the availability of high powered weaponry as well as the smaller arms..

Personally, in the present period, I would not like to have the responsibilities of the police, but I would not like to have pulled the trigger and kill somebody, who was non compos mentis, because he was waving a plastic replica of a gun.

I am not saying it easy to identify the validity of the weapon, or that I wouldnt pull the trigger.

If I did so, I would expect the action to be investigated, evaluated and lessons if any learnt.


==================

The Jean Charles de Menezes case the mistakes seem to have been made at ground level. Initially, the problem seemed to have been from mistakes in surveillance, possibly/probably, he could/should have been apprehended at the flat, or on his journey to the Underground Station.

I think the chain of command and passing of information should have been and probably was evaluated after the debacle.

The following removal of Sir Ian Blair from his position by Boris, was a completely political assassination and very threatening to the future independence of the police.

GreekFred has just saved me the job of writing a long explanationI pretty much echo his views right up until the last two linesmy views on Ian Blair could not be repeated on these BBs
I know you are a retired Police Officerand I thank you for protecting the public and myself for all those yearsyou are appreciated by all good citizensI also pretty much agree on Chris Carsons takecast your mind back to Blairs initial statement on the Menezes incidentit could have been written by the Monty Python teamI am personally relieved Menezes did not put up a struggleI hate to think what would have happened to the poor bloke if he had?

Exec: re your post 8036 (sorry, only just seen it)

433MHz is used for all sorts of things, including Amateur Radio. The primary user of the band (70cm) is the MoD, secondary allocation is to Radio Hams, and then type-approved devices such as car remotes, wireless home burglar alarms, your weather station etc.

The output of our local Ham radio repeater at Bracknell (GB3BN) is exactly on 433MHz.

The problem arises not because of exact frequency clashes but because the receivers simply get saturated with signal energy from closely adjacent frequencies and 'go deaf'.

There's nothing you can do about it. Weaker batteries in your weather station won't help.

Tabs,

The statement of Ian Blair at the time of the JCDM shooting was based on information supplied to him from a chain of command from those at operational level.

You may think that it would have been more reasonable to have awaited further information, or vetted the information given to him differently, but it does depend on the trust you put on your colleagues.

Blair, was responsible for policy and only to a minor part in the implementation of the policy.

If you are measuring him on other actions and policies that is a different matter.

Perhaps, you are referring to the London riots 2009 and their management, if so, a large amount of the problem there was the implementation of crowd control techniques by some aberrant officers.

Again I would not like to be trying to manage those situations.

Fred - Your last statement (Again I would not like to be trying to manage those situations.) The Metropolitan Police are well trained and have a vast experience of crowd control, but they are human and they suffer the same emotions as everyone else ie FEAR, they are in the front line and have to be seen to deal with the situation or situations as they happen and to their credit they get it right 99% of the time. Unfortunateley that doesn't get reported, not newsworthy and the media don't make any money and sell papers. They focus on an incident that occurred when a guy who was wandering around appearing to be either Ill, high on drugs or possibly even drunk was pushed by a big bad Policeman. Not defending the big bad Policeman, just questioning his motives and maybe thinking If I had been continually spat at, punched,kicked in the goolies, shins, had numerous objects thrown at me not to mention verbal obscene abuse continually for 3 or 4 hours would patience be one of my strong points? I don't know either!

Sir Ian Blair imo was aware of Met detectives corruption over a fortune missing from the force's accounts Greedy officers are alleged to have used police-issue American Express cards to splash out on luxuries for themselves like flat-screen Tvs holidays restaurant bills jewellery and Rolex watches The plastic is supposed to be for booking flights and accommodation on investigations... astonishingly the bills have gone unscrutinised for years-despite Sir Ian being warned about unauthorised spending on the Amex cards.
Remember two cops from the Met's SO15 counter-terrorism squad were arrested in connection with the scandal Sir Ian rushed to tell Home Secretary Jacqui Smith about the latest shock developments in a bid to save his skinLord Harris chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority's corporate governance committee said: "The slowness of the Met's leadership to respond to recommendations from their internal auditors has been a source of continued annoyance to me.Tory MP Patrick Mercer a senior member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee said the expenses scandal was the clearest sign yet that Sir Ian had to go. He said: "There are now so many nails in Sir Ian Blair's coffin that he has no choice but to quit.He was accused of misleading the public and the De Menezes family by claiming in a press conference on the afternoon of the killing that the police shooting was "directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation"when in fact an Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation into the Met's response to the shooting found that Blair made this remark less than an hour before one of his most senior officers the assistant commissioner Andy Hayman was briefing crime journalists that the dead man may have been innocent.Others told the inquiry they had been aware of rumours circulating within hours of De Menezes' death that his killing had been a terrible mistake Blair said he had not been aware that the wrong man had been shot until the following dayYeh right!The head of the IPCC went on to accuse Blair of causing much of the "avoidable difficulty" facing the force since the shootingIn May 2006... Detective Constable Peter Smyth the chairman of the Met constables' branch said the force's 24,000 beat constables had no confidence in Blairhe also had made inappropriate use of public money in offering consultancy work to a personal frienddo you think that was a score an hour?with his many gifts and favours that were continually documentedI would say the man is a cnut!you can accuse Boris of a lot of thingsamazingly he got Blair rightanywaythose were a few of my favourite thingsyou decide?

Tabs,

Is this the same Alan Simpson as reported below?



City MP refuses to hand back 500 in expenses review
Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 07:00


A CITY MP is refusing to hand back 500 which the 'expenses investigator' appointed by Gordon Brown has recommended he should repay.

Nottingham South MP Alan Simpson warned that if Sir Thomas Legg, who is reviewing claims back to 2004, wants him to hand over the cash he will have to force him using the "full authority of the courts".


=========


Perhaps the gravy train stops in many places.

If Blair has behaved corruptly, prosecute him.

What was Constable Smyth real beef about..

Was it something to do with over-time claims?

Could I see the poll of the officers he canvassed.

The Metropolitan Police Service reminds me of the Titanic. A huge ship and difficult to turn around,

I don't think Blair is responsible for the personal actions and discipline of all his crew if when made aware of faults was trying to remedy them.

Judging from a distance during his period in office he had improve the policing standards in London by many changes in policy. (This I believe was the opinion of many senior police officers throughout the country.)

I still hold the same opinion as stated prevously regarding the Menezess' case.

Hi Fred1,

I completely agree that the guy was harmless and sitting on a seat in an underground train.
The big problem was that at the time and on information given, he was presumed to be an armed terrorist.
Without going into detail, I used to be trained in certain explosives. If he had been wired, there are several trigger devices he could have used to activate an explosive device. It did look bad when it was reported he had been shot at close range several times, but that is what I would have done. There was no option.
Even a fatally injured terrorist is still a potential danger.
The big problem was the 'thumb in mouth' syndrome of senior officers, they panicked!
I do agree with your comment that in most live/death situations there is time to assess, but that time is very short when your life or the life of the general public is at risk.
Anyway I don't want to labour this subject. It can get to people.

And to all. Believe me I do understand the frustration felt when things go wrong (not just in connection with the Police Service) and most Police Officers share the frustration.
Also most POs appreciate the support of the public.

Thanks to all.

GreekI am 100% behind our front line Police forceChris makes valid points that I believe most sensible people understandI certainly do! but hopefully as one of those sensible peopleI cannot understand some of the decisions made from abovejust take the Menezes casewe have some of the finest anti-terrorist officers on the casethey know the real suspects facethey know where he lived Tulse Hill {flat number}his flat entrance was under surveillanceso it would seem intelligence had pretty much pinpointed the suspectOperation Kratos was in practiseshoot to kill!police had followed Menezes for some time to Stockwell Tube Stationthe final outcome where police and media accounts contradicted each other specifically regarding Menezes's manner and clothing as he entered the station and whether there had been any police warnings before their Starsky and Hutch routinehe was taken out with seven close range shots to the head in rush hourin front of terrified commutersthat included woman and children
This is where I have a problemintelligence had pinpointed the suspectwith appearance name and living arrangementsfirst part of the job done!Operation Kratos was in practiseto put it in a nutshellthey were going to shoot him dead know matter whatwould it not have been sensible that a team went into the flat middle of the nightsmashed down the doorand done the deedno risk of explosives being detonatedidentification could have been 100% establishedno risk to the publicno witnessesbingo scum off our streetssorry guvthe moment we had confirmation that this was the guythe gun went off?a small inquiryand the police would have been heroesinstead we have a coroners report and Inquest into the death that was less than flattering to our boys

HM Assistant Deputy Coroner, Sir Michael Wright
Inquest into the death of Jean-Charles de Menezes
Rule 43 Report
2. Rule 43(1) provides as follows :
'Where

(a) a coroner is holding an inquest into a person 's death;

(b) the evidence gives rise to a concern that circumstances creating a risk of other deaths will occur, or will continue to exist, in the future; and

(c) in the coroner's opinion, action should be taken to prevent the occurrence or continuance of such circumstances, or to eliminate or reduce the risk of death created by such circumstances,

------------------------------------------------
I was in Londonand pretty close to the action on the 7 July 2005...no one wanted to take out those bas*ards more than mebut life is a gift we are blessed withthe good guys must make sure there is no other way to deal with a situationand no risk to the innocent those in charge of the operation failed big timeand Blair is a cnut!!!does anyone know if he has written a book about the operation?if he does will he again profit?was his pension 3.5ml?
That is my last word on the subjectFred ChrisGreek we all sing virtually from the same sheet

Morning Tobasco,

Agree with many of your points. Would just like to clarify a couple though.
Shoot to kill is by definition an emotive term. The training is to aim at the centre of the body or the head as there is then less chance of missing. I always looked at this so called shoot to kill, which was never an official policy, more as a 'Don't shoot to injure' policy. It is no easy task to fire a hand gun and hit someone at say 50 mtrs, especially when the heart rate is so high it feels like your chest is about to explode.
As to a Police warning re the Menezes case and to being shot in front of terrified women and children, I can only state again,'the firearms officers had no choice'.

Re your comment of going into the flat and containing the situation, on the facts I am aware of, I agree, putting this down to lack of planning at the top.

An old military saying, still rings true today, lions lead by donkeys.

As you say we all virtually sing from the same sheet, but trust me 'You don't want to hear ME SING'.

I was trying not to add any more, But.

Greek,

The referral to sitting down was in response to the posting
------------------------------------------------------
dcb - 30 Jan 2010 10:35 - 8078 of 8088
The Brazilian plumber was in the country illegally, a fact most people overlook. If he had left when his visa expired he would still be fixing pipes today

This remark I saw as a dismissal of the death justified by he wasnt one of us argument.

------------------------------------------------

Of course in may have been written with tongue in cheek.
-------------------------------------------

Right from distance memory, I think I recall the problems in the Menezes case started with the surveillance of his flat.

I may be wrong, but it was suggested one of the officers broke off surveillance in order to have a pee.

If so it seem ludicrous to not have sufficient backup to allow for this, if Menezes was viewed at dangerous.

After that it was catch up and relevant anxieties of the possibility that Menezes was a bomber. I think that may have been part of the reason for the response which followed/

(He could have be stopped before arriving at the underground station.)

One thing which you could clear up for me, is what is the chance of a stray bullet triggering a bomb.?

What type of triggering mechanism is used in terrorist bombs?

I think as Tabs wrote, all of us are in general agreement about a sad event but understand the difficulties in such situations..

Fred1,

Agree 100%. As to the stray bullet question, it depends where the bullet hit. Sorry can't be more specific, as it also depends on the trigger type. But unlikely.
Any up to date explosive experts (I would not class myself as anyway near an expert) out there could possibly clarify.

Regards Greek.