Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Tabs,

The statement of Ian Blair at the time of the JCDM shooting was based on information supplied to him from a chain of command from those at operational level.

You may think that it would have been more reasonable to have awaited further information, or vetted the information given to him differently, but it does depend on the trust you put on your colleagues.

Blair, was responsible for policy and only to a minor part in the implementation of the policy.

If you are measuring him on other actions and policies that is a different matter.

Perhaps, you are referring to the London riots 2009 and their management, if so, a large amount of the problem there was the implementation of crowd control techniques by some aberrant officers.

Again I would not like to be trying to manage those situations.

Fred - Your last statement (Again I would not like to be trying to manage those situations.) The Metropolitan Police are well trained and have a vast experience of crowd control, but they are human and they suffer the same emotions as everyone else ie FEAR, they are in the front line and have to be seen to deal with the situation or situations as they happen and to their credit they get it right 99% of the time. Unfortunateley that doesn't get reported, not newsworthy and the media don't make any money and sell papers. They focus on an incident that occurred when a guy who was wandering around appearing to be either Ill, high on drugs or possibly even drunk was pushed by a big bad Policeman. Not defending the big bad Policeman, just questioning his motives and maybe thinking If I had been continually spat at, punched,kicked in the goolies, shins, had numerous objects thrown at me not to mention verbal obscene abuse continually for 3 or 4 hours would patience be one of my strong points? I don't know either!

Sir Ian Blair imo was aware of Met detectives corruption over a fortune missing from the force's accounts Greedy officers are alleged to have used police-issue American Express cards to splash out on luxuries for themselves like flat-screen Tvs holidays restaurant bills jewellery and Rolex watches The plastic is supposed to be for booking flights and accommodation on investigations... astonishingly the bills have gone unscrutinised for years-despite Sir Ian being warned about unauthorised spending on the Amex cards.
Remember two cops from the Met's SO15 counter-terrorism squad were arrested in connection with the scandal Sir Ian rushed to tell Home Secretary Jacqui Smith about the latest shock developments in a bid to save his skinLord Harris chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority's corporate governance committee said: "The slowness of the Met's leadership to respond to recommendations from their internal auditors has been a source of continued annoyance to me.Tory MP Patrick Mercer a senior member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee said the expenses scandal was the clearest sign yet that Sir Ian had to go. He said: "There are now so many nails in Sir Ian Blair's coffin that he has no choice but to quit.He was accused of misleading the public and the De Menezes family by claiming in a press conference on the afternoon of the killing that the police shooting was "directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation"when in fact an Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation into the Met's response to the shooting found that Blair made this remark less than an hour before one of his most senior officers the assistant commissioner Andy Hayman was briefing crime journalists that the dead man may have been innocent.Others told the inquiry they had been aware of rumours circulating within hours of De Menezes' death that his killing had been a terrible mistake Blair said he had not been aware that the wrong man had been shot until the following dayYeh right!The head of the IPCC went on to accuse Blair of causing much of the "avoidable difficulty" facing the force since the shootingIn May 2006... Detective Constable Peter Smyth the chairman of the Met constables' branch said the force's 24,000 beat constables had no confidence in Blairhe also had made inappropriate use of public money in offering consultancy work to a personal frienddo you think that was a score an hour?with his many gifts and favours that were continually documentedI would say the man is a cnut!you can accuse Boris of a lot of thingsamazingly he got Blair rightanywaythose were a few of my favourite thingsyou decide?

Tabs,

Is this the same Alan Simpson as reported below?



City MP refuses to hand back 500 in expenses review
Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 07:00


A CITY MP is refusing to hand back 500 which the 'expenses investigator' appointed by Gordon Brown has recommended he should repay.

Nottingham South MP Alan Simpson warned that if Sir Thomas Legg, who is reviewing claims back to 2004, wants him to hand over the cash he will have to force him using the "full authority of the courts".


=========


Perhaps the gravy train stops in many places.

If Blair has behaved corruptly, prosecute him.

What was Constable Smyth real beef about..

Was it something to do with over-time claims?

Could I see the poll of the officers he canvassed.

The Metropolitan Police Service reminds me of the Titanic. A huge ship and difficult to turn around,

I don't think Blair is responsible for the personal actions and discipline of all his crew if when made aware of faults was trying to remedy them.

Judging from a distance during his period in office he had improve the policing standards in London by many changes in policy. (This I believe was the opinion of many senior police officers throughout the country.)

I still hold the same opinion as stated prevously regarding the Menezess' case.

Hi Fred1,

I completely agree that the guy was harmless and sitting on a seat in an underground train.
The big problem was that at the time and on information given, he was presumed to be an armed terrorist.
Without going into detail, I used to be trained in certain explosives. If he had been wired, there are several trigger devices he could have used to activate an explosive device. It did look bad when it was reported he had been shot at close range several times, but that is what I would have done. There was no option.
Even a fatally injured terrorist is still a potential danger.
The big problem was the 'thumb in mouth' syndrome of senior officers, they panicked!
I do agree with your comment that in most live/death situations there is time to assess, but that time is very short when your life or the life of the general public is at risk.
Anyway I don't want to labour this subject. It can get to people.

And to all. Believe me I do understand the frustration felt when things go wrong (not just in connection with the Police Service) and most Police Officers share the frustration.
Also most POs appreciate the support of the public.

Thanks to all.

GreekI am 100% behind our front line Police forceChris makes valid points that I believe most sensible people understandI certainly do! but hopefully as one of those sensible peopleI cannot understand some of the decisions made from abovejust take the Menezes casewe have some of the finest anti-terrorist officers on the casethey know the real suspects facethey know where he lived Tulse Hill {flat number}his flat entrance was under surveillanceso it would seem intelligence had pretty much pinpointed the suspectOperation Kratos was in practiseshoot to kill!police had followed Menezes for some time to Stockwell Tube Stationthe final outcome where police and media accounts contradicted each other specifically regarding Menezes's manner and clothing as he entered the station and whether there had been any police warnings before their Starsky and Hutch routinehe was taken out with seven close range shots to the head in rush hourin front of terrified commutersthat included woman and children
This is where I have a problemintelligence had pinpointed the suspectwith appearance name and living arrangementsfirst part of the job done!Operation Kratos was in practiseto put it in a nutshellthey were going to shoot him dead know matter whatwould it not have been sensible that a team went into the flat middle of the nightsmashed down the doorand done the deedno risk of explosives being detonatedidentification could have been 100% establishedno risk to the publicno witnessesbingo scum off our streetssorry guvthe moment we had confirmation that this was the guythe gun went off?a small inquiryand the police would have been heroesinstead we have a coroners report and Inquest into the death that was less than flattering to our boys

HM Assistant Deputy Coroner, Sir Michael Wright
Inquest into the death of Jean-Charles de Menezes
Rule 43 Report
2. Rule 43(1) provides as follows :
'Where

(a) a coroner is holding an inquest into a person 's death;

(b) the evidence gives rise to a concern that circumstances creating a risk of other deaths will occur, or will continue to exist, in the future; and

(c) in the coroner's opinion, action should be taken to prevent the occurrence or continuance of such circumstances, or to eliminate or reduce the risk of death created by such circumstances,

------------------------------------------------
I was in Londonand pretty close to the action on the 7 July 2005...no one wanted to take out those bas*ards more than mebut life is a gift we are blessed withthe good guys must make sure there is no other way to deal with a situationand no risk to the innocent those in charge of the operation failed big timeand Blair is a cnut!!!does anyone know if he has written a book about the operation?if he does will he again profit?was his pension 3.5ml?
That is my last word on the subjectFred ChrisGreek we all sing virtually from the same sheet

Morning Tobasco,

Agree with many of your points. Would just like to clarify a couple though.
Shoot to kill is by definition an emotive term. The training is to aim at the centre of the body or the head as there is then less chance of missing. I always looked at this so called shoot to kill, which was never an official policy, more as a 'Don't shoot to injure' policy. It is no easy task to fire a hand gun and hit someone at say 50 mtrs, especially when the heart rate is so high it feels like your chest is about to explode.
As to a Police warning re the Menezes case and to being shot in front of terrified women and children, I can only state again,'the firearms officers had no choice'.

Re your comment of going into the flat and containing the situation, on the facts I am aware of, I agree, putting this down to lack of planning at the top.

An old military saying, still rings true today, lions lead by donkeys.

As you say we all virtually sing from the same sheet, but trust me 'You don't want to hear ME SING'.

I was trying not to add any more, But.

Greek,

The referral to sitting down was in response to the posting
------------------------------------------------------
dcb - 30 Jan 2010 10:35 - 8078 of 8088
The Brazilian plumber was in the country illegally, a fact most people overlook. If he had left when his visa expired he would still be fixing pipes today

This remark I saw as a dismissal of the death justified by he wasnt one of us argument.

------------------------------------------------

Of course in may have been written with tongue in cheek.
-------------------------------------------

Right from distance memory, I think I recall the problems in the Menezes case started with the surveillance of his flat.

I may be wrong, but it was suggested one of the officers broke off surveillance in order to have a pee.

If so it seem ludicrous to not have sufficient backup to allow for this, if Menezes was viewed at dangerous.

After that it was catch up and relevant anxieties of the possibility that Menezes was a bomber. I think that may have been part of the reason for the response which followed/

(He could have be stopped before arriving at the underground station.)

One thing which you could clear up for me, is what is the chance of a stray bullet triggering a bomb.?

What type of triggering mechanism is used in terrorist bombs?

I think as Tabs wrote, all of us are in general agreement about a sad event but understand the difficulties in such situations..

Fred1,

Agree 100%. As to the stray bullet question, it depends where the bullet hit. Sorry can't be more specific, as it also depends on the trigger type. But unlikely.
Any up to date explosive experts (I would not class myself as anyway near an expert) out there could possibly clarify.

Regards Greek.

Interesting to see in the first race at Wolverhampton today {2.05} there was a horse called METROPOLITAN CHIEFalso in the same race there was another runner called BRAZILIAN BRUSHMETROPOLITAN CHIEF was placed at 25/1...the BRAZILIAN got beatknow change there then?

Tabby!!!!!!

What was the name of the horse which won?

1st (2) Miss Firefly 5-1
2nd (3) Tamino 6-1
3rd (12) Metropolitan Chief 25-1
12 ran
NR: Beaux Yeux
WIN 6.80
EX 47.50 CSF 34.07
Tote Place PL: 2.00, 2.20, 6.40

Tabasco,

Nice one. At least they both finished meaning neither had to be shot.

OK back to the usual moans. Who thinks if the Conservatives get in, by this time next year we will all be thinking, 'If only Gordon would come back'.

My own feeling is many like myself who intend to vote Conservative will do so because they feel they must be capable of doing better than the current lot, which isn't saying much.

Anyone else feel the worse is yet to come, due to the full figures regarding our 'true' national debt still to be clarified.

Like Kenneth Connor said in Carry on Clio. O woe is me, Woe, Woe.

Greek lolI dont believe there is a leader on offerwhoever gets inwill win by defaultmy opinion FWIW we will get a hung parliament and I have backed that opinionI am afraid our choices make little appealI have a lot of respect for Vince Cablewho called the Banks problems long before anyone elseI take a lot of notice of what he saysI am afraid he is with the wrong party

tabasco - Spot on, I like Cable too for the same reasons but alas again as you say he is with the wrong party. No question Torys will win and still convinced it will be a landslide :o)

I reckon the turnout for the next general election will be utterly pathetic.

At the last one, it was around about 60% (give or take). However, this time I reckon it will only be about 40% or so. This is because the 'Expenses Fiasco', in most of the electors' minds, has 'in totality' destroyed belief in MPs of whatever party or persuasion.

We now all of us know for sure, that 90%+ of them are basically just a bunch of cheating crooks, primarily just out to feather their own nests.

Loads of them who stand again in the next election are just not going to get re-elected, per se. Q: Why? A: Just because they filled in an expenses claim in the last parliamentary period.

We need a new system of government.

I'm a Vince Cable fan too. Maybe we should just appoint the John Lewis Group to run the country. In turn, they could let Vince Cable head that department up.

Also.....I'm greatly looking forward to the new John Lewis Bank, as and when and if it comes along.

Because they 'are never knowingly undersold', taxes would go down for a start.

I also like and admire Vince Cable. The only reason he was not voted leader of the Lib Dems (who I feel would be so fringe group supporters it would be catastrophic), was because of his age. I feel he is one of the best of the few who are worth supporting in Parliament.
A personal view obviously.

I am not so sure about the outcome. The tories are showing their inadequacies more and more.

Like V. Cable could get a job in a coalition of Labour and Liberals.

I think Clegg should have waited a little longer before attempting to take the crown.

Chris Huhne would probably would have been a better stand in for 3-4 years.


The expenditure made in Britain for the last 12 years was repairing the infrastructure sold off by Maggie for the benefit of her friends.

Hospitals and school buildings have undergone fantastic improvements. So have social services.

Previous to the labour government, the rats were leaving many of the buildings, due to them being unsafe.

Mistakes have been made, which government haven't done so when making reforms.

But one thing is, even if Cameron gets in, which I doubt, there is not much of the nation's silver to sell off.

Personally, against the background I think G Brown and the labour party have done a good job with the media and press been paid to denigrate him.

But will probably be given a job in Europe or the states.

Both areas where they admire his ability.

.But one thing is that when the electioneering and examinations of false expenses claims are examined, it is going to be a dirty election.

I would have a small bet on either a hung parliament or a labour win by a very narrow majority.

I don't think when the time comes the old Etonian club will win this one and Itchy and Scratchy have little appeal for many of the middle and working classes.

Recent polls look better!
Might raise my bet!