Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Morning Tobasco,

Agree with many of your points. Would just like to clarify a couple though.
Shoot to kill is by definition an emotive term. The training is to aim at the centre of the body or the head as there is then less chance of missing. I always looked at this so called shoot to kill, which was never an official policy, more as a 'Don't shoot to injure' policy. It is no easy task to fire a hand gun and hit someone at say 50 mtrs, especially when the heart rate is so high it feels like your chest is about to explode.
As to a Police warning re the Menezes case and to being shot in front of terrified women and children, I can only state again,'the firearms officers had no choice'.

Re your comment of going into the flat and containing the situation, on the facts I am aware of, I agree, putting this down to lack of planning at the top.

An old military saying, still rings true today, lions lead by donkeys.

As you say we all virtually sing from the same sheet, but trust me 'You don't want to hear ME SING'.

I was trying not to add any more, But.

Greek,

The referral to sitting down was in response to the posting
------------------------------------------------------
dcb - 30 Jan 2010 10:35 - 8078 of 8088
The Brazilian plumber was in the country illegally, a fact most people overlook. If he had left when his visa expired he would still be fixing pipes today

This remark I saw as a dismissal of the death justified by he wasnt one of us argument.

------------------------------------------------

Of course in may have been written with tongue in cheek.
-------------------------------------------

Right from distance memory, I think I recall the problems in the Menezes case started with the surveillance of his flat.

I may be wrong, but it was suggested one of the officers broke off surveillance in order to have a pee.

If so it seem ludicrous to not have sufficient backup to allow for this, if Menezes was viewed at dangerous.

After that it was catch up and relevant anxieties of the possibility that Menezes was a bomber. I think that may have been part of the reason for the response which followed/

(He could have be stopped before arriving at the underground station.)

One thing which you could clear up for me, is what is the chance of a stray bullet triggering a bomb.?

What type of triggering mechanism is used in terrorist bombs?

I think as Tabs wrote, all of us are in general agreement about a sad event but understand the difficulties in such situations..

Fred1,

Agree 100%. As to the stray bullet question, it depends where the bullet hit. Sorry can't be more specific, as it also depends on the trigger type. But unlikely.
Any up to date explosive experts (I would not class myself as anyway near an expert) out there could possibly clarify.

Regards Greek.

Interesting to see in the first race at Wolverhampton today {2.05} there was a horse called METROPOLITAN CHIEFalso in the same race there was another runner called BRAZILIAN BRUSHMETROPOLITAN CHIEF was placed at 25/1...the BRAZILIAN got beatknow change there then?

Tabby!!!!!!

What was the name of the horse which won?

1st (2) Miss Firefly 5-1
2nd (3) Tamino 6-1
3rd (12) Metropolitan Chief 25-1
12 ran
NR: Beaux Yeux
WIN 6.80
EX 47.50 CSF 34.07
Tote Place PL: 2.00, 2.20, 6.40

Tabasco,

Nice one. At least they both finished meaning neither had to be shot.

OK back to the usual moans. Who thinks if the Conservatives get in, by this time next year we will all be thinking, 'If only Gordon would come back'.

My own feeling is many like myself who intend to vote Conservative will do so because they feel they must be capable of doing better than the current lot, which isn't saying much.

Anyone else feel the worse is yet to come, due to the full figures regarding our 'true' national debt still to be clarified.

Like Kenneth Connor said in Carry on Clio. O woe is me, Woe, Woe.

Greek lolI dont believe there is a leader on offerwhoever gets inwill win by defaultmy opinion FWIW we will get a hung parliament and I have backed that opinionI am afraid our choices make little appealI have a lot of respect for Vince Cablewho called the Banks problems long before anyone elseI take a lot of notice of what he saysI am afraid he is with the wrong party

tabasco - Spot on, I like Cable too for the same reasons but alas again as you say he is with the wrong party. No question Torys will win and still convinced it will be a landslide :o)

I reckon the turnout for the next general election will be utterly pathetic.

At the last one, it was around about 60% (give or take). However, this time I reckon it will only be about 40% or so. This is because the 'Expenses Fiasco', in most of the electors' minds, has 'in totality' destroyed belief in MPs of whatever party or persuasion.

We now all of us know for sure, that 90%+ of them are basically just a bunch of cheating crooks, primarily just out to feather their own nests.

Loads of them who stand again in the next election are just not going to get re-elected, per se. Q: Why? A: Just because they filled in an expenses claim in the last parliamentary period.

We need a new system of government.

I'm a Vince Cable fan too. Maybe we should just appoint the John Lewis Group to run the country. In turn, they could let Vince Cable head that department up.

Also.....I'm greatly looking forward to the new John Lewis Bank, as and when and if it comes along.

Because they 'are never knowingly undersold', taxes would go down for a start.

I also like and admire Vince Cable. The only reason he was not voted leader of the Lib Dems (who I feel would be so fringe group supporters it would be catastrophic), was because of his age. I feel he is one of the best of the few who are worth supporting in Parliament.
A personal view obviously.

I am not so sure about the outcome. The tories are showing their inadequacies more and more.

Like V. Cable could get a job in a coalition of Labour and Liberals.

I think Clegg should have waited a little longer before attempting to take the crown.

Chris Huhne would probably would have been a better stand in for 3-4 years.


The expenditure made in Britain for the last 12 years was repairing the infrastructure sold off by Maggie for the benefit of her friends.

Hospitals and school buildings have undergone fantastic improvements. So have social services.

Previous to the labour government, the rats were leaving many of the buildings, due to them being unsafe.

Mistakes have been made, which government haven't done so when making reforms.

But one thing is, even if Cameron gets in, which I doubt, there is not much of the nation's silver to sell off.

Personally, against the background I think G Brown and the labour party have done a good job with the media and press been paid to denigrate him.

But will probably be given a job in Europe or the states.

Both areas where they admire his ability.

.But one thing is that when the electioneering and examinations of false expenses claims are examined, it is going to be a dirty election.

I would have a small bet on either a hung parliament or a labour win by a very narrow majority.

I don't think when the time comes the old Etonian club will win this one and Itchy and Scratchy have little appeal for many of the middle and working classes.

Recent polls look better!
Might raise my bet!

Fred,

I feel the Labour Government under Blair/Brown have done more to destroy this country than any government in the last 100 years.

We have been sold down the river. Over the last 14 years we have given away more and more to the EU. We have dozens more quangos, more red tape, irrelevant laws. Labour are trying to rule all our lives. I truly believe they hate this country, and the countryside especially.
Failed on Immigration.
Failed on health (especially with the huge amount of money put in).
Failed on education (dumbing down).
Failed on Law and Punishment.
Failed on the economy.
They to me are a total failure.
If they could get away with being a dictatorship they would do.

Every day you read that they now intend to improve all the above. They have had 14 years. Just how many more do their supporters think they need.

I have never had such contempt, verging on hate for any party.

Greek,

Is that your unbiased opinion?
----------------------------------

"Failed on Immigration."

How would you remedy the problem. Unless of course everybody has Identity cards and "Stop and Search" and remove the necessity for Search Warrants ie. allowing immediate police entrance to any property.

I.e. a police state similar to an occupied country

Cost of doing so would be disproportionate.
-----------------------------------------------------

If your problem with immigration is false "social claims", then an computerised ID system for claimants would probably resolve the problem.

-----------------------------------------------

"Failed on health (especially with the huge amount of money put in)."

Absolute rubbish.

There are still mistakes, faults and weaknesses in the NHS, but the overall accessibility, care and advancement (costly, check the cost of a scanner etc.)
Treatment of elderly has been advanced., orthopaedics, Chest and heart disease for examples.

Many people are living today, who would have died of coronaries , asthma or led bed ridden lives.

THAT COSTS MONEY. (As said above there are still organisation problems for a TITANIC.size operation.)

----------------------------------------------

Failed on education (dumbing down).

There has been problems and too many reorganisation and the government have been guilty of trying to rum rather than walking.

But the school premises and contents have been improved.

The selling off of playing fields fiasco was a disaster but "I think" the legislation allowing for it was by the tories and use by mainly tory councils.

==========

"Failed on Law and Punishment."

Major crime rates seem to be down

================

"Failed on the economy."

Consider your living standards in the 1990 to those of the present
Working conditions, quality of housing, transport communication. Possession of disposable junk. etc. Expectancy. Cobblers.
==================================

"They to me are a total failure.

If they could get away with being a dictatorship they would do."

=============================

Reds under the bed, you aren't a member of the McCarthy party or are you?


8-)

Cameron is a poor clone of T. Blair, if you want another less able spiv as PM vote tory and you "may" get one.

Fred1,

I think we will have to agree to differ on most points.

But I must say that on immigration, my view is on the single fact, we are an overcrowded island, we have no room. I feel we should ban all immigration unless it can be proven the immigrant can benefit the UK. And all immigration means those from all countries. For many years I have loved Greece but due to not wishing to be that distance from family have not emigrated to that country. But if I was to apply and the Greek Government said, 'sorry we have no room' I would have to accept that. Also if I was accepted, I would expect to abide by all their laws. I would not expect to be carried by the Greek people and be supplied with housing, social security befits, interpretors and so on. The UK are the mug of the world.
If we were the worlds lifeboat, we would have sunk by now.

As to vote Tory and I may get another less able spiv, I can only agree, Yes I might. But I am willing to take that risk for my previously mentioned reason. It can't get worse (at least I hope not).

What I do respect it your obvious strong feelings. If it wasn't for the likes of you and me, we would never get change/reform. It is the silent majority that roll over and except that get me riled.

Shame Lord Such the leader of the Monster Raving Loony Party isn't still around.

My children, when they were young, often wished I lived in a different country.

Lord Such has morphed into Cameron and Osborne, or their more rational moments Oliver and Hardy,


8-)

PS. When I was a student 50 years ago, I wandered (hitch hiked) around Europe meeting in YHA students from all ove the World and Europe in particular.

I realised then that the majority of us aspired to the same ideals and hopes for ourselves and others.

Since that period I have generally though of myself as a European except when Wales is hammering England at Rugby.

Also since that time believe in the free movement or immigration of people across borders.

However, although still believing in the above I did not foresee the size of the immigration or some of the problems associated with it.

My wife is an European migrant and one of my daughters works in the home office on European immigration problems and policy. The problems are complex, sometimes bewidering and without easy resolution.