Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Tabby,

?????????/

I don't think Atkinson is advocating that children should be excuse for "aberrant" antisocial behaviour.

She is suggesting that those children who are showing "wild" behaviour to be treated, often in units with trained therapists to try to salvage something from the psychopathic environments they have been "dragged" up in.

Hopefully, some will be able to return to society as useful members.

If there are groups of adults who are deliberately perverting children for their own personal gratification or gain, they are the ones who should be prosecuted and if found guilty punished and instituted.

Children are recognise as not being fully cognisant of the world, that is why we expect them to schools and try to guide them appropriately. There is no gain by criminalising them, revenge for some is sweet but of very little lasting value.

The main approach to criminal behaviour should be prevention, early intervention and support. Expensive in the short time but cheaper in the long term.

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Tabby, my guess is that you were less than pure white in your childhood and youth, and like myself "got away" with a lot more than we should have done.

Another point, is a lot of the "aberrant" behaviour in childhood is the mimicking of the values shown by adults and shown to them in the media.

KayakI never said punishmentI said they need to be charged for their crime and taken out of society until it is clear they are safe to mix with other children
Let us just analyse your post.

Ten years olds have not got the ability to take stock of themselves and decide on a set of morals for themselves..so you are saying they have no responsibility for any of their actions?therefore violence is going to be inevitableif in their make-up

Before that, you just do and behave according to what you have been taughtso you are saying if they have been taught wrong by their parentsthey have no responsibility for any of their actions?therefore violence is going to be inevitableif in their make-up

Punishing a ten year old is merely punishing the wrong man.so you are saying they can commit proven murderas in the Bulger case but still have no responsibility for any of their actions?therefore violence is going to be inevitableif in their make-up

KayakBritain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European unionviolent peopleand that includes childrenneed to be charged and taken off our streetsuntil they reformany other view would be putting the innocent at risk!!!

FredI was no angelbut I took a few beatingsstanding up against violet bullies that made it their game to hurt the easy target my father was a strict disciplinarianso I soon learnt about right and wrong at a very you agewell before I was twelvethe do-gooders are more trouble than the troubled!

Nearly correct. "Responsibility for their actions" to me implies that they knew they had a choice, made what they knew in most of society to be the wrong choice, and knew that they might well face consequences for doing so. I don't think any of that would go through the mind of a ten year old.

Unfortunately most people don't have the sort of disciplinarian parent that you had. Is it right to punish children for a lack of discipline at home? I doubt it. Personally I would punish the parents. I might not give them life imprisonment for a murder, but I would certainly try them in place of their children for any crimes and misdemeanours their children committed.

Also, a lot of children's morals come from their peers. If they hang out with peers who have similar discipline issues, it's not a surprise they try to fit in.

Finally, if the parents are unable to bring up their kids 'properly' then they should not be doing the job and the kids should be taken away for their own sake. The problem with that position, though, having spoken to a number of social workers recently, is that they have nowhere near the level of resources required to do that. There are far too many kids not being brought up properly, so they can only act in cases where the situation has exploded.

Country Number of violent crimes
1 UK 1,158,957
2 Austria 133,546
3 South Africa 732,121
4 Sweden 108,004
5 Belgium 107,885
6 Canada 306,559
7 Finland 41,664
8 Netherlands 111,888
9 Luxembourg 3,233
10 France 324,765

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Kayak - I agree with your logic re parents being punished for crimes there little darlings commit. Unfortunately the parents today get away with the crimes they commit and unless there is radical change they will probably get away also with the crimes there children commit! This country has been going to the dogs since the sixties, 'Spare the rod spoil the child' Who said that?

tabasco - I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with those statistics - they say nothing about why they are so high for the UK. Perhaps because the age of criminal responsibility is so low?

If they are true, I doubt very much that they are anything but comparing apples and pears. Source, please?

mnamreh, you are a wise chap. FFS = For F***'s Sake.

Much of the polarisation in UK society is down to the tabloid press, for which polarised attitudes are the name of the game.

Kayak.

Also, a lot of children's morals come from their peers. If they hang out with peers who have similar discipline issues, it's not a surprise they try to fit in.

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Much of what the peers are doing is that shown to them in the media. The gangs or group then tries to emulate what has been demonstrated to them.

The media being driven by "profit", not morality.

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Tabby,

Ten years olds have not got the ability to take stock of themselves and decide on a set of morals for themselves..so you are saying they have no responsibility for any of their actions?therefore violence is going to be inevitableif in their make-up


Violence is within all our natures, as demonstrated by legalised killing ie. War.


The drive remains instinctual, but hopefully not often used.

Containment, or constraint of the violent impulses, needs to be integrated into children at a young age and continually be re-enforced.

Preferably this is not done by punishment by reward for more gainful behaviour.

The impulse sublimated and diversified into more productive methods of obtaining more valuable goals, rather than remaining purely destructive.

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I feel lucky that I had parents who didnt physically punish me.

I knew, when, or what I was doing, was being frowned on and generally stopped doing so. At least , while I was within their view.

My father would also explain to me why he thought my behaviour was less than expected and the consequences of it to myself and others of continuing it.

It taught me awareness of others and to have respect of their feelings.

Although, not necessarily to be restricted by that understanding.

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We attempted to bring up our children in a similar manner. Although the question why was sometimes a B. Nuisance.

Thankfully our grand children are being brought up in a similar manner and will avoid to much trouble.
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cc.

Bring back the stocks and hanging for driving offences. That will stop the Bs, first time. No re-offending allowed.

Sort them out once and for all.

Catch them young before they have a chance to offend. We all know the families which shouldn't be allowed to breed!

.

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To be fair, I think Fred was being sarcastic. Mind you I know of one family who shouldn't have been allowed to breed :-)

Only one Kayak? You should get out more :o)

Only one Kayak? You should get out more :o)

Only one Kayak? You should get out more :o)

There's a parrot in ere!

There's a parrot in ere!

There's a parrot in ere!