Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

What is wrong?

test

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I would bring back guilt by association or named and hang all who disagree with me.

Or if you are up north, those mentioned in the Sun.

Weren't Kayak and Cameron mentioned in the Sun??????????????

Ian, Don't hang me I only pressed the button.

It seemed the right colour!

How do you unread a negative?

fred,

George is looking into this- seems the unread number on this thread is negative at the moment,

Ian

Sometimes you have to punish children, even if they are the product of a broken family, they have to be put somewhere secure to protect the public.

Both Thompson and Venables knew what they were doing. They knew it was wrong and for societies sake they had to be locked up.

As a very young PC I remember attending a burglary of an OAP. This burglary was one of many committed on OAP's in the area. This time we had a lead that resulted in the attendance at the home of a 9 year old boy. The first thing he said to me was something similar to, 'You can't do owt to me copper, I'm not ten yet'. This was a lad who had climbed through open bedroom windows to riffle through bedrooms at night. Yes he may have had a rotten upbringing, and obviously needed guidance, but I sometimes think where he is now, some 30 years later. I would bet with the weak system we have he is more likely to be in prison than not (I have seen it so many times), whereas with help, guidance with the threat of sevear punishment always there perhaps he and many others would not be still of the rails.

We often hear that we are locking too many people up. Well in my experience, prison is usually used as a last resort when all else fails. I would like to see prison for many people used earlier in the process, before they get used to the many slaps on the wrist that make them almost immune to the fear of prison.

I will give just one example. A youth who was about 18 when he was first arrested for house burglary. He was arrested at least a further 10 times before he was eventually put away. Just think how many such crimes he had committed that we had not caught him for. For at least the last 5/6 times he appeared in court he was told that on his next appearance he would be 'sent down'. Each time that he wasn't he obviously thought he could just carry on as before.

Whatever happened to the short sharp shock we were all promised a few years back.

Greek - Just you and me on this one it would appear. I used to think when i was serving that because we dealt with the shite on a daily basis that perhaps I was being a little cynical. Unfortunately since I have retired I have become even more cynical the shite have bred creating more shite! There is something seriously wrong when teachers in school are frightened of the pupils, lack of discipline,respect, same old, same old, sick of discussinng it!

.

Hear what your saying mnamreh, beginning to sound like my Grandad, he thought the 'world was nigh' on the birth of the Beatles, screaming at the telly 'get your hair cut'. Dread to think what he would say about Jedward eh!

Just counting my loses at Cheltenham todaylively debate! .Greekthank Christ for a bit of sanityI think you are best placed to make a commentand I agree with your post. Kayak you sound like one of those do-gooders that mean well but end up making the innocent feel guiltyand the problem worse sorry!.

tabasco - I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with those statistics.

I am trying to prove that this Country is very violent and we wont lock up the perpetratorsI don't care whatever agecolournationality?if they are off our streetsour kids are safe!is that too simple to work out?

namrehare you an authoryour posts are an education.and I mean that in the most complementary way

Greek,

they have to be put somewhere secure to protect the public.

I agree but that place, or institution, should be for reform, not punishment.
It should be safe and secure.

It doesnt have to be a soft option, and can often be run on giving and withdrawing rewards ie. Tellies etc..

It doesnt need holidays abroad, but should have (in my opinion) exposure to out- door events and sports etc. hoping to develop their self sufficiency and awareness of others.

Their psychological problems and consequences should be addressed sensibly.

Some kids are not able to relate in a normal manner to others, or their environment. This group of delinquents is a particular problem, as at the moment , there doesnt appear sometimes to be humane logical approach to them, other than captivity.

The problems of the family have to be addressed. They are usually the problems produced by the same environment as they are giving their offspring.
I think attempts to reduce the number of possible offspring will have to occur more strongly , but wouldnt like to try to introduce necessary legislation. (Legislation which operates of value judgements is fraught with problems.

Reduce the number of teenagers having children and reduction in the family size of the less responsible has proved difficult, even though it has been had overt and covert attempts for more than forty years.

Again some moderations to the approaches are need, but again one can see the uninformed and unthinking rising in arms to protect their rights.

I remember picking up a young kid by the scruff of the neck when he had broken into my property and the fear the little boy had in his eyes as he peed himself. At the time, I felt sorry for him as dumped him on the pavement, and told him to go home and never do it again.

The family should be responsible for the young and helped or educated to be
responsible, again using reward or denial system.

But should my father have been punished for me scrumping apples and other fruit, climbing over, or under fences into gymkhanas, or taking pot shots with a catapult, as a child. Dont know. I dont think we did any lasting damage.

The stupidity is that we had fruit trees at home having their apples nicked by others.

If the youths that you describe were caught for various repeated offences were put in a reform unit or a training program of some form, it would have been cheaper that putting them through the courts, again and again.

But that needs increased taxes in one form or another and doesnt show benefits for a generation or two.

But the courts have to carry out the sentencing they promise for repeated offenders.

Gee, just thought of a few things I have done in my life, I am glad nobody notice me.
============

NM. I am not old like you.

I am in my 4th childhood. Getting better and better every day.

===========

The thing we are missing. is that, it was our responsibility to have made society better, when we had the chance.

Rather than helping in the development of a the society, which often consists of "self first" and B. the rest.

Mnamreh,

I also hear what your saying. My wife often refers to me as the Victor Meldrew of the village. Whilst I agree we can't always harp back to the 'good old days', you know the days of child rickets, plague and the workhouse (OK not that old) but if we don't try to get back to good old fashioned manners, respect and one or two other long lost good traits we may as well give up.
I find more and more people are just accepting, an not standing up for what they believe in.

As to the doom mongers, re 'The end of the world is nigh', just think one day they will be right.

By the way, my Grandad was the flog em and shoot them all brigade.

Now who's moved me bloody glasses.

But quoting a load of numbers, tabasco, without source or explanation, won't prove anything...

The answer on the lack of interest in sending offenders to jail, as well as to the failure of 'short, sharp, shock', is surely purely money. It has grown so expensive to make and maintain new jails (presumably the cost of HD tellies?) that increasing criminality has been met with less jailtime rather than more jails. The more we go into the vicious circle of less punishment causing more criminality causing less punishment though, the more difficult it would be to deliver a short, sharp, shock even if there were the political will to do so.

Fred,

Just seen your post. I fully agree with reform. In an adult prison I feel that (I have posted this before) it should be punishment first, protection of the public second and reform third. I do agree with you re young juveniles that reform should come first, with punishment becoming more to the fore as the perpetrator ages.
Although reform often without punishment fails totally.

Kayak,
I feel that over a very short time the short sharp shock would save money, as it would deter offenders more than anything else.

As to all the posters on this thread, I must say that between us we appear to have a far better grip on how to deal with most issues than our so called leaders.

Kayak - That sounds like apathy to me, this so called government could spend less money on the farce that goes under the name of Health and Safety for a start.

Just as a matter of interest, how would you react if say a problem family moved next door to you and made your life hell? Would you a. Move
b. Call the Police, which unfortunately made matters worse cause they painted 'grass' on your front door, trashed your car, bullied your children at school and called your wife a slapper.
c. Send them a solicitors letter, informing them you had installed cctv and there actions were being recorded, but unfortunately they wore hoodies so couldn't be identified.
d. Set up a neighbourhood watch. Resort to hiding in the back of the car in the drive armed with a baseball bat. Guess who would be arrested if you used it!
e. Write to your MP.

I would respectfullly suggest none of the above, because you wouldn't be living in that sort of area. That sort of area by the way exists in every city in the Uk.

Greek,

A short sharp shock taught me to be more careful not to get caught again! 8-)

It is easy to pontificate or theorise to provide the resources, financing and legislation to do so is the difficulty.

Taking the electorate with you against a battering of "reduce my taxes and tax avoidance" and implementation of the necessary regimes is another problem.

During my little journey I have met many probation officers, social workers, psychotherapists, psychoanalysts, police and other "caring" professionals .

Some were seemed very young and lacking a ;little "worldliness" or often a decent standard of education or training. Some were well intended, but less than proficient. Some manifested their own undealt problems and prejudices.

A few were over paid, but many grossly underpaid for the responsibility they were undertaking.

Society has to recognise its responsibility to pay a reasonable rate for the work undertaken.The "professionals" also have to fulfil their responsibilities raising their standards and not just opting for the quiet life and stick their necks out a bit more.

FredI dont give a stuff where you lock them upI personally want them charged for their crimes. reform to them would be hard punishmentjust get them off the streetsand let our children feel safethese young gangsters need to understand there will be no winners with violence good post BTW 8557