Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

The big problems with all statistics given out by governments are as the saying goes, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Having relatives in the NHS I can state the following. Waiting times are hugelly fiddled. I personally had this experience within last 12 months. Saw GP, went on waiting list to see Consultant. Rang up 4 weeks latter, GP had not yet notified Consultant, so not yet on waiting list to see Consultant.
Consultant seen, recommended to see Physio. Told waiting list was about 4 weeks, 4 weeks pass, nothing heard, rang Physio dept told they had no record. Rang GP stated they were going to refer me in the next few days. Rang back week later NOW on Physio waiting list.

Another fiddle, is calling hospital trolleys Beds, so that they can say they have kept within targets. In casualty, they will see you within the alloted time (assessed)only to they keep you waiting for treatment. Once you are assessed, that is the start of your treatment.

There are literally hundreds of examples.

I don't have the time or inclination to tell you of all the fiddles in the Crime Reporting system, that keep the government happy by being well within targets, except to say it would take me all day to list them..

Yep. A few years ago I was a regular at the Small Claims Court and marveled at the statistics boasting that 100% of summons were issued on the day requested. This surprised me since it was days or weeks before my own were. It turned out that 'issued' was taken to mean 'allocated a number from the book' rather than anything to do with actually sending it out.

The whole targets thing is at best a waste of time and at worst causes huge manpower to be diverted at the expense of overall performance to ensure that certain very specific monitored targets are met.

Fred - You seem to have the uncanny ability to twist everything. (Put your reading glasses on and try again). Where in my post have I criticised employees, doctors nurses etc? You rant on about the legacy (alleged) left by Thatcher, Labour have had 13 years to put this legacy right and yet it is reported today that 25 hospitals have suffered 4,500 unexplained or unnecessary deaths. I made a simple statement which is an unfortunate fact, people are scared of being admitted to hospital period (not just some hospitals) because of hygiene issues on the wards. The reference to 'back to basics' (I'll spell it out just for you Fred) was in respect to sorting this out first and foremost. Hello!

KayakI thought you was a do-goodernot a good-doerwith your summons
did you contemplate going missing like another well known canoeist?

lol no I was chasing tenants for their rent. Honest :-)

Sorry matetoo many glasseseven the Chablislooks Chablur?

Greek,

The weakness you describe is down to an inadequate GP or his secretaries, not what is the overall provision within the health service.

It happens in the Private side of Medicine as well

I am not disputing that improvements would be gainful.

But introducing the changes in any system is fraught with difficulties.

Go back to your time in the police force.

What is common place and useful to-day, was unthought of 20 years ago.

What was overwhelming then and thought impossible is in common usage by your children.
==================


CC.

I dont think the remark any chance you may become less blind was out of benign interest in my health.

My other remarks were in regard to Pointless having sophisticated, megga technology if patients admittted to our hospitals are dying as a result of super bugs. Back to basics dont you think!


=========================

If you look around you will see the infrastructure and resources which have been built over the last 12 years,

==============
The health service consist of its staff and properties, by inference some or either is responsible for the Standards of Care.

===================================

Could standards be higher, of course they could and should be.

But deal with facts not the emotions and then it is easier to remedy.

==================

The Hygiene problems are being addressed, by the staff ie..Nurses. cleaners. Doctors, auxiliary staff.

===============

Whipping up of public indignation is not usually that useful.



I would suggest engaging your brain before responding.

Goodbye.

Fred - A change of Government I would suggest would be more than useful! Public indignation does not need to be whipped up by me or indeed the Conservative Party or Lib Dems,as will be clearly seen when this unelected PM and his joke of a Govt finally decide to put us out of our misery and call a General Election.

CC.

You are sounding more and more like a cracked record.

What are the polls suggesting to-day.

Tabs,

What are the bookies odds on the outcome of the election.

Fred - Get a grip!! Bookies? Polls? You will be telling me to read the Sun next.

I thought you did!

Good Evening.

Fred - How about if it is possible Money am set up a poll, lasting a day or a week whatever, call it the 'next government'. If Labour get the nod I will abstain from posting until after the real election on the proviso you do the same if Conservatives get the nod? ........Ian

Fred,

Re 'What is common place and useful to-day, was un-thought of 20 years ago'.

Whilst I agree that a lot of things are common place now to say 20 years ago, it does not make many of them right, IE Increase in, Bad Manners, Unruly behaviour, Drug taking, Violence, to name but a few, are more common place.

As to my comments re the NHS and the like, I was trying to put the point of view that it is endemic and not just down to a few GPs and sloppy secretaries.
Workers in the NHS are being told to do whatever is necessary to show 'Targets are being kept'. And like I said, re Crime figures/targets I have abundant prove of these figures being fiddled.
As to 'Whipping up of public indignation ', I would like to quote my sons favourite saying, 'All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing'. Perhaps a bit more whipping up of public indignation is what this country could do with. I feel if more people moaned as much as I do, the bad things in life would not be as readily accepted as they are. We put up with far too much in this country. Once standards have dropped it is very hard to get them back up again, you only have to look at discipline in schools and the home.

I note you feel that some posters are becoming a tad bit personal. I do agree with you in that respect, but I do find you are also getting a bit personal. Although I do find your posts get to me sometimes (wind me up) I put that down to me and to no intention on your part (I hope).
So lets all keep the posts coming, without personal digs.

Regards Greek.

CC

No.

Because a poll of any general validity needs a random selection of an "uninterested" pool, before you make any valid deduction from the information collected.

Even then, it would not necessarily indicative, or even meaningful regarding the likely outcome of the election, etc..


My guess, is that the Moneyam punters (as a group) are anything but representative of the general electorate.


If you wish to obtain a result, which may or would give "you" a validity to pushing go ahead.

I would be interested in the result.

If the poll was a "yes" for "labour", would you change herds?

I doubt that it would induce me to become a party member.

Fred.I think you know from my previous postsI have had good punts on a hung Parliament.and May election

tabasco - 14 Dec 2009
I cannot see any alternativesMay is a very good bet
No Overall Majority @16/5 could be the bet
----------------------------
up to the minute odds
Conservative Majority10/11
No Overall Majority6/4
Labour Majority.10/1
Any Other Party Majority820/1

Election Date - Month
May 2010.1/20
June 2010.17/1
April 2010.99/1

Fred - What you really mean is you like the sound of your own voice to much! Worth a try :o)

You dont have to be too clever to see how strong my position is.thats what you get for being a lucky thicko?

Greek,

I have not noticed you being offensive to me, and generally your comments or arguments are related to the subject under consideration.

I have not been deliberately offensive to you, or intend to be, although I disagree with some of your positioning on various topics.

If I intended to be abusive to you, I am sure you would be aware of my intent.

True, I am often deliberately provocative, as I am to my grand children, who often laugh and say "Grandad you are at again.".

It can be part of trying to stimulate thought and understanding.

There is a difference between the man, and the actions of the man, although sometimes the actions can be seen as representative of the man.

Right that is out of the way.

==============

"Whilst I agree that a lot of things are common place now to say 20 years ago, it does not make many of them right, IE Increase in, Bad Manners, Unruly behaviour, Drug taking, Violence, to name but a few, are more common place."

=========

Partially I agree, but when I reflect on the past and consider certain individuals in the working environments and jobs I have done, doubt creeps in and I somehow doubt that we are much worse.

It may be more obvious and publically condoned.

(The violence and football hooliganism seems to have disappeared or at least diminished from our screens.)

Drugs and alcoholism are now less of a problem now than in many periods.
I don't think what we can label as "sloppiness" is generalised in the NHS, but think there is an increasing lack of empathy.

But sloppiness was and is responsible of many industrial accidents, less prevalent than in earlier periods.

Constructive criticism is always valid, but sometimes the intention is destructive, for covert reasons.

Unfortunately, to judge improvements from innovation, one needs valid data and statistical analysis.

The collection of that data can be irritating and attempts should be made to make the data collected of as pain free as possible.

The correlation of data collected is important because the theories of today lead to the inventions of tomorrow.

I leave you in peace.

Best wishes and have a good evening, it could be our last. 8-)

Tabs,

Thanks.

Other than shares, not a betting man.

The odds seem to be closing.

Fred,

As I said, I put that down to me and to no intention on your part. The 'I hope' was tongue in cheek. I obviously have no problem re your disagreeing with me. Thats what makes this thread interesting.
As to your posts winding me up, believe me it don't take much.
If I had auditioned for the part of Victor Meldrew, I would have no doubt been found to be 'far too bolshie'.
Perhaps us Granddads should form our own political party.