Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Hi Fred,

Whilst I will not argue that the Police have a very good pension, what is often forgotten is that a Police Officer pays over 11% of their pay packet into their pension pot. Just look at how much less other public servants pay in contributions.
As to working to 67, I feel that this could not be possible as a front line officer for obvious reasons.
I read the other day that some Police Officers had take their pensions, then continued in the same job as civilians. This was stated as if it was wrong, but there is nothing wrong with taking your pension in any job, then continuing past the pension age in the same job. Also there was mention of Officers being paid a minimum of time and a half for at least 4 hours for working on a canceled rest day, even if they only worked for 30 minutes. I wonder how many would give up their rest day to work for less than 4 hours, when it often resulted in a whole day lost. I have been called in on a rest day many times and never for less than 2 hours that I can remember.
I know of Officers that have had their annual holidays canceled due to so called unavoidable duty commitments
It was mentioned that some Officers were claiming this minimum of 4 hours just for taking a phone call on their day off. I don't know abut other forces but my old colleagues never did so as they knew this would back fire, causing other so called perks to stop.
Another so called perk was to be rewarded for specialist posts or for 'dirty jobs', IE decayed bodies.
Most forces do not pay extra for specialist posts and quite right to. As for dirty jobs, no one I knew really wanted this and I myself have dealt with many so called dirty jobs, which I accepted as 'part of the job'. There are many other examples quoted in the media, such as special payments for performance. I only know of this occurring once in my career, and this caused so much resentment it was soon dropped.
So I do fully agree that things should change, especially in the upper ranks, but I have read so much rubbish in the media, being spouted about all the extras Officers get, I urge you not to believe at least half of what you read.
If you want to list so called 'perks I will endeavor to answer them in defense or (and there are a few) condemn them.
Please don't think I am having a go at you, as having read my post a couple of times, it could come over that way, which is not intended.

Note... Pension contributons. The second percentage mentioned is employer contributions

Police
9.5% - 11% (It was 11% for Police Officers)
24.2%
55
14,000

Teacher
6.4%
14.1%
60 or 65
10,000

Military
0%
29.4%
55
8,693


NHS
5% - 8.5%
14%
60 or 65
7,000

Civil servant
1.5% - 3.5%
3% - 18.9%
60 or 65
6,200

Local government
5.5% - 7.5%
13.20%
65
4,044

Greek, sorry mate but Fred is an armchair know - all, knows fuck all wind up merchant. He has these throw away opinions on every subject under the sun, glad you put him right. Far better to just ignore the prick imo.

Hi Chris,

Must admit, he has wound me up in the past, but I will usually answer him once if he post, otherwise we do go round in circles.

Cheers Greek.

GF.

I knew many from similar backgrounds as you seem to have had. Many of them were lucky enough to go to Universities and benefit in a similar way to you.

They were able to do this because of their "ability" and the university grant system, without the fear of acquiring massive debts as a consequence.

The majority of those individuals paid that debt back to society, by choosing to teach, lecture or carry out research, etc., and some by paying higher taxation as related professionals.

In general, they contributed to society and help to oil its functioning.

However, I don't love the labour party, but I love the Conservative party even less.

I respect the altruistic ethos of the Labour party, but not the way it sometime attempts to achieve those ideals.

The Liberal party has been betrayed by its present leadership and is betraying those who voted for it in the recent election.

===========

I have grandchildren and have some fears for their future well being because of disharmony which I think is being engineered unconsciously by the present government.

They will be able to go to university without debt, if they so wish, but that is due to their LUCK in having parents and family who are financially able to provide tha amount of cash to provide for their needs.

============

The proposed reforms to the education financing system are appalling, punitive and retrograde.

============================

Greek.

I was baiting you a little.

But you have to admit you could manage to pay 11% into the pot.

Also the amount paid on top by the State is pretty good.

Many lower earners, if they paid 11% of salary into a pension scheme would have to apply for wealthfare, benefits in order to survive reasonably.


Also, think many in Manual workers are physically worked out by the time they reach 55-60years of age. "Flogging" this group of individuals for another 10 to 12 years does remind me of the Big State. (The USSR)

Not begrudging your retirement, as I am enjoying mine.

But some of you colleagues could be dried out and slimmed down a little and worked for another 10years or so. 8-)

===========================

Anyway this government has "managed" to retain enough Military Force to be able to protect the Cayman Islands and the British Virgin Islands, when its members retire there.

Also, may have a luxury Aircraft Carrier with heli-ports to float them around the West Indies .
=========

By the way, didn't Cameron con the Forces in the lead up to the election.

Always, trust a conman.

Greek - Stand by your statement, he really isn't worth the bother. Cheers Chris :O)

Fred,

I had no augment in paying 11% from my salary and yes the employer contribution was generous. Due to the general population living longer, it is only fair that contributions to all pensions should be paid longer, but as for a Police Officer working the streets at plus 55, it is a no go. I always stayed fairly fit (my nickname was Road Runner) but even at the age of 45, I found the yobs were harder to chase and even harder to arrest if they resisted.
I do agree though that many officers are unfit and over weight.

Greek.

I found some yobs a bit harder, but!

Pensions in some areas of employment were set up as an inducement to get tje "workers".

Ie. low paid Public service areas.

Just asking, if you are not fit enough at 50 to apprehend a 17 year with a grudge. would you be fit enough with "rests" to work as a labourer underground, steel works or areas of heavy engineering.

Those areas are still there.

Not attacking you, but having experienced those areas very happy to have escaped them.

I am trying to point out the complexity of "Fair" policies.

I am glad that as a youth that during vacations I was exposed to many areas of industry and experiences of the "lower" classes.

Also, remember the humour of "Rhondda Grey".

Fred,

Nowhere did I mention that at 50 you are not fit enough to apprehend a yob, although it is increasingly far more difficult as you get older. What I said was, "As to working to 67, I feel that this could not be possible as a front line officer for obvious reasons".
Many physical jobs do not involve chasing after people and tackling them. You can slow down in most physical jobs with not much effect. You slow down as a Police Officer, the bad guys get away more, which is serious, plus you end up with more assault related injuries.

Winston Churchill: I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

Winnie, was just an old lefty at heart!

.

Can anybody inform me of the costs of 500,000 more unemployed and their dependants to the state?

Also, why is it legitimate to buy a house on a 25year mortgage is it so inappropriate to do the same with the upgrading, building of schools and hospitals. universities, plant etc.. which was neglected by previous administrations.

Strange how there is still money for the tory icons of Academies.

The cuts and method of introduction stink of ideology.


Or perhaps, that money will be spent on holiday homes in the Cayman Islands.

US pundit PJ ORourke put it: If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when its free.

Unit costs should go down.

Winston also said, "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few".
If he were still alive today he could have shortened it to fit the present financial crisis, "Never was so much owed by so many"

Fred,

You ask, 'Can anybody inform me of the costs of 500,000 more unemployed and their dependents to the state'
Well it won't cost as much as paying them a wage from the national purse. It's simple economics.
As to the mortgage question, the Labor Government Schools/hospitals program was at a far higher interest rate than your average house mortgage.

Also house mortgages are taken out mainly due to the fact that most people can not put down such a huge amount in one lump sum, whereas the Labour Government (who before the schools purchase program used to) took this route so that any cost would not show up in the accounts, and therefor not be shown as a debt on the governments books. Another accounting fiddle.
Also if you peruse the official figures, which have been independently prepared show on average that the cost of rebuilding a school under BSF was three times more expensive than an equivalent commercial project.
Labour have conceded this, but unbelievable still say it was the best way to go.

Some further figures.
The process of applying for BSF investment was so fiendishly complex that, collectively, Englands local authorities spent an estimated 250 million on preparing their bids, with 60 million being spent on consultancy or advisory costs. Thats 250 million just to fill in the forms, so plentiful was the red tape.
Some councils which entered the process six years ago have only just started building new schools. Another project starting this year is three years behind schedule.

I have no problem continuing this debate, but only if you can show my figures are wrong. If you can't it is an open and shut case of Labour Government waste.

And I bet most of those 500,000 jobs weren't there 13 years ago when Labour took over the reins.

Well said, Seymour.
That has been one of the biggest problems under Labour, too many jobs that were dependent on being paid by the state, IE us.

"Also if you peruse the official figures, which have been independently prepared show on average that the cost of rebuilding a school under BSF was three times more expensive than an equivalent commercial project.

Labour have conceded this, but unbelievable still say it was the best way to go."


Does that mean we were ripped off by the private centre.


Still would like to know cost of the extra 500,000 unemployed.

Fred,

Sorry can't continue with this, not when you ask, 'Does that mean we were ripped off by the private centre'.
Surely you must know that the figures were agreed by both parties before contracts were signed, or do you believe that the Labour Government went in blind.
If they were ripped off, it can only be their (Labours) fault.
I rest my case.