Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Shut up Stan you Idiot , lol.

So he trusted the French ? or did he want an integrated Europe what out them . If he were alive today his view on Europe would be the same has Thatcher.

Greek,

I am not implying that you advocate "torture", but think that you may be appearing to condone it, albeit "only" in certain circumstances.

The problem is where does the slippery slope begin.
------------------

The statement ;

"Soldiers in war don't usually have a choice, they have to 'fight' for their country. Terrorists have a choice."


The circumstances, in which many "terrorists" develop, do not allow for many other pathways.

Generally, they seem to emerge from groups, which are, or feel oppressed "Economically" , "religiously" or "culturally". (I think the most important is "economically".)

The only weapons apparent to them for "reparation" is "terrorism", or "violence" or similar.

Look at Burma in the present and consider for yourself, as one of the disenfranchised, how do you make "advancements" without resorting to violence.

It may be possible, but a man/woman has only one lifetime to achieve it and benefit from any "achievement". (Frustrating.)

I think that one has to address "terrorism" directly, but at the same time address the causes of the "aberrant behaviour".

This has to eventually happened and has been done in these "sorts" of "conflicts".

Eg. Ireland with it mixture of causes.


Go in peace!

Aid.

Were you turned down by a French girl when you were very young?

Fred,

You say, 'I am not implying that you advocate "torture", but think that you may be appearing to condone it, albeit "only" in certain circumstances. The problem is where does the slippery slope begin'.

I have to agree, I do under certain circumstances condone it, and I agree re the slippery slope.

You say, 'The circumstances, in which many "terrorists" develop, do not allow for many other pathways'.

Again I agree, although that is often down to endocrine their minds, and in those instances it has to be their hard luck if they are caught. They still should be 'Interrogated' as my previous post, if doing so will save lives.

You say, 'I think that one has to address "terrorism" directly, but at the same time address the causes of the "aberrant behavior".

Again agree. The problem though is often that the route that we take to address terrorism goes badly wrong. Some of these people have been brainwashed so much that we as the enemy will never be able to change the way they feel. There is only so much we can do.

As to Burma, again I agree. But there is a difference in fighting against those who oppress you and targeting civilians.

As to Ireland. Sort of agree although I feel we played it too soft and that the problem, although no where near as bad is re-surfacing.

Blimey Fred. I am agreeing with you 4 and a half times out of five.

Greek.

Another fear which I have about "torturing" somebody for information, is that they may not have any information to "give".

When do you stop?

Is it at the point of confabulation?

At such a point do you continue to torture based on the confabulation?

I would not like my grandchildren to be apprehended, labelled "probable terrorist", because he was my grandchild, associated with me, or knew some of my past "friends" and then subjected to torture.

Various members of my wife's family were subjected to "imprisonment" on similar pretexts to the above, simply because they were not communist adherents. (Reported to the authorities by "friends or neighbours", on the bases of minor transgressions.)

Again agree. But a terrorist always has some info no matter how small. That is why I feel the best use of so called torture is to use drugs. There are many drugs available that can be used to get people to talk. Of course any info given/obtained must be checked out before being acted upon.

How many of the 150,000 plus of the Iraqis killed by American and British forces were members of the military forces at the time of killing or future terrorists.

That war and actions in Afghanistan have provided the manure for polarisation (and their "misdirection") of the youth of many other countries.

What is appropriate reparation and would it resolve the ongoing problems?


These two episodes have probably caused years of disaffection and will take years to remedy.

Violence in itself condones violence, but soemtimes without it seems impossible to "efficiently" resolve immediate problems.

Greek,

"
Of course any info given/obtained must be checked out before being acted upon."

Sorry, once again.

If the information can be "checked out", that implies that there is already information on the "subject", and/or there are other sources from where "similar" information can be obtained.

This would seem to imply that the torture is unnecessary and therefore not justifiable.

============

Just a non-thinking thought.

Isn't life complicated?

Bush and Blair are Christians and the main threat to our way of life are from Muslim terrorist , so isn't radical interpreting of religion one of the main reason's

I told Fred 2 year's ago to buy gold share's instead of messing with those hi tec shares

Greek,

Some of these people have been brainwashed so much that we as the enemy will never be able to change the way they feel. There is only so much we can do.


Have to challenge once again.

If they have been brain-washed by external agencies, or subjected to active indoctrination, leading to change, or modification of their basic concepts and beliefs about themselves and the world about them.

Then one suppose their attitudes, feelings, and actions, or reactions to the world around them would be changed.

Unless the individual intellectual processing is psychotic, the process of indoctrination for most people is a common place affair. The majority of people are able to upgrade their beliefs throughout the majority of their lives. (Belief in Father Xmas, or that England can win the Triple Crown this year.)

(Daily advertisements, in the media, modify opinion and the tastes of the general public, everyday. People move from loving Margarine to butter and back again to Margarine.)

This would suggest any brain-washing, with the help of the skilful experts can be modified strongly held views.

Getting the right approach, and the results wished for, by attempting to do so, is the difficulty.

Unfortunately, when beliefs are formed, they often develop a psychotic intensity or element to them.

Perhaps, this can be seen in those who adhere too strongly to the religious, or ideological beliefs of various political parties, or religious groups.

Ald,

I told Fred 2 year's ago to buy gold share's instead of messing with those hi tec shares

I don't recall that piece of advice, but would have been a lot better off it I had followed it. (Thanks anyway.)

Hopefully, I will learn from my mistakes and live long enough to have a chance not to repeat them.

Retrospectively, I regret many decisions I have made, but at the time thought I was making the best choices available to me.

Fifty years on, I can remember, when I was 20, that some suggested that I wouldn't make 30. Sticking around just to annoy them.

Does anybody know who pays for the "business entourage" holidaying with Cameron in China?

Does the costs for the trip come out of the Public Purse?

They are worth ever penny who ever pay's

It was about the time that we were invested in Bewell or some such name , they had a anti asthma drug, did you hold SEO as well ?

Ald,

1) not dodging the question, are you?

But there were complaints from some about the gravy trains in the past, and I hope Cameron is not spilling any on their ties.

(I suppose it is one way of getting party funding.)


2) Bespak now trading a Consort Medical. Sold out at small profit. Looking at chart seem to be recovering from previous fall with a breakout pattern.

Unfortunately I did hold SEO. at a loss.

C'est la vie.

Talking of 'gravy trains', what has happened to 'raving davy gravy'?

alds,

Wouldn't be surprised to see Gold drop back to 1225! But not my area of trading usually.

Fred,

You say, 'How many of the 150,000 plus of the Iraqis killed by American and British forces were members of the military forces at the time of killing or future terrorists'.

I agree that there are and always will be innocents that die in war, it is something which sadly can not be avoided. Collateral damage is a horrible term and must be one of the worse anger creating terms of all, but it is a sad fact that in war it happens.
Should we have not for example, have entered the second world war, knowing that innocents would die at our hands.
But we do not go out to deliberately target innocent people, terrorists do.
Although I must state that the intentional bombing of civilian areas in wartime by both sides occurred, it was only carried out by the allies in answer to Germany's bombing of UK cities. Due to our actions, Germany soon stopped such attacks. There was no other option. If we had not attacked German cities, Germany would have continued to bomb the UK population into submission. My fathers house was hit badly in that war, and completely destroyed. Luckily no one was home. I am sure my fathers family and thousands of others in the same situation would not have wanted the government to sit back waiting for the complete devastation of their country before hitting back in the same ilk.

And yet the 'Do good brigade' still want our government to apologize for such actions.
The two exceptions were the dropping of the Atomic Bombs on Japan. Although it did force Japan to surrender, thereby saving many lives. I know it is often looked at as a pathetically childish thing to say but, 'They started it'. If someone attacks you, you defend yourself as best as you can. So for the atomic bombings, all blame lies with the Japanies government of the time.
And before you jump on that bit, I do not blame those fighters in either Iraq or Afghanistan fighting back. But it does not make them right. Those who fight back against our troops have to be killed, as simple as that. They are our armed forces enemies.

You say, 'That war and actions in Afghanistan have provided the manure for polarisation (and their "misdirection") of the youth of many other countries'.

Sort of agree. It is a very big cause, but not the main one. Most are indoctrinated in 'hate the west' almost since birth. We can not de-brainwash these millions of people.

You say, 'What is appropriate reparation and would it resolve the ongoing problems'?

Can't answer that one. It may do, it may not. But if you mean in monetary terms why should we.

You quote me as saying, "Of course any info given/obtained must be checked out before being acted upon."

You then argue that point by saying, If the information can be "checked out", that implies that there is already information on the "subject", and/or there are other sources from where "similar" information can be obtained.

This would seem to imply that the torture is unnecessary and therefore not justifiable.

What I actually meant was any new information gained must be checked out.
Yes there will obviously be information already known, that leads to the detention of that particular suspect.

So once again we will have to agree to differ or else we will just go round in circles.

Fred

That's the one Bespak i sold with more then a small profit , i think you hold your stock's to long like many who held SEO. its always a good idea to bank some profit on the way up and to cut your loses or reduce your holding on the way down.

Gold won't stay down for long , not while the US are printing more $

Greek,

A huge difference between WW2 and Iraq war, was that Germany was the proven aggressors and justified British and Allies retaliation, where as in Iraq we were the unjustifiable aggressors.

I hope you are not giddy.

==========

Ald.

Sounds like the Golden Calf.