Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Boxer

Firstly,

I hope Britain would adhere to United Nations mandates or resolutions (for Gausie).

I hope we wouldn't treat smaller nations with the distain that Israel is showing.

We didnt do so in NI.

We eventually listen to and negotiated with the IRA, in spite of its previous actions. It is probable that if we had addressed some of the injustices in Northern Ireland earlier, and started negotiations earlier, many lives would have been saved.

Unfortunately, although the West may be able to give financial and humanitarian support to the underdeveloped African states it is unlikely to intervene militarily because history of colonisation. We could help South Africa etc. if they were prepared to take the burden on.


The Financial Aid given, must delivered to the point of need and not into GA or the hands of corrupt entrepreneurs, middle men and politicians.

But this thread relates to ISRAELS DISPROPORTIONATE ACTIONS IN GAZA.

Yes true Fred1 "still in KMR?" Its not soley about deaths but the threat of death posed by the constant bombing by Hamas on the people of Israel. Can you deny that?. To live under such duress is not acceptable and must be stopped. Its as simply as this, Hamas stops bombing Israel withdraw, deaths cease! but Hamas don't wish for this to happen.

I think the answer you were looking for tabby is "is doesn't it simply makes matters worse".

The term "disproportionate" is a nonsense term that has appeared as of late.....first ...there is no need to shout on line Fred....I think we can all read...secondly.... I suppose you could say that the Allied bombing of Germany might be "disproportionate" or whatever and then you could go on right through every war......it's total nonsense....if you are being fired at, you fire back and defeat your adversary....Hamas had this coming, they need to stop firing rockets and bring an end to this terrible conflict !.

Boxer,

Simple, is the last thing it is!

If your population was being starved2, anything, which drew attention to your plight, may seem reasonable.

What would make it simpler:-

1) would be is that Israel makes a declaration agreeing to the United Nations Mandates and resolution.

2) to allow Gaza and the West Bank to be self governing and to trade freely

3) to allow Gaza to trade and utilise all its borders including the Med freely.

4) to respect that HAMAS is, at present, the Elected Government in Gaza. To give Hamas a voice at the United Nations, even this is only temporally until the West Bank and Gaza become one and under one government by free choice.

5) to guarantee restoration for the damage caused by the Israelis in the current invasion.

6) to allow the immediate admission of journalists and observers into the war zone of Israeli making.

7) the adherence to the requests of the Humanitarian Agencies.


I wont go on. But if they agreed to number one it would be a start.
========================================

Israel has always responded in a disproportionate manner and I can see no reason why that should not be so. If one is attacked unprovoked then by all means respond with the upmsot force. It will discourage people from attacking you. It is similar to the 'shoot the burglar' law in the US. If you don't want to get shot then don't become a burglar. However, in this case it is difficult to regard the agression as unprovoked. Israel has done plenty of things to the Palestinians that can be regard as provocation such as taking their land time and time again. In terms of agression and terrorism then Israel and the Palestinians are at the same level.

In November 2004, a United Nations Security Council report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act".

This definition covers Israel and Hamas.

Don't forget the bombing of the King David hotel in 1946 which was directed against the British who were the occupying firce in Palestine at the time, which killed 91 people. The bomb plot was led by Menachem Begin, who later became Prime Minister of Israel. Many of Israel's leaders and members of the government started out as terrorists. You could say that Israel more or less invented modern terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_Bombing

Well put Fred but it dosent detract from the plain fact which is Hamas continually target the bordering villages of Israel with the intention of causing casualties. If they had the means the casualties of Israel would be much, much greater. The intention and desire to detroy is evident. You talk of disproportion say 100/1 but if that one was yours would you then, i think not?. One life is as important 100 is'nt it?.

The term "disproportionate" is a nonsense term that has appeared as of late.....first ...there is no need to shout on line Fred....I think we can all read...secondly.... I suppose you could say that the Allied bombing of Germany might be "disproportionate" or whatever and then you could go on right through every war......it's total nonsense....if you are being fired at, you fire back and defeat your adversary....Hamas had this coming, they need to stop firing rockets and bring an end to this terrible conflict !.
Fred1new - 14 Jan 2009 15:59 - 273 of 273

RF.

The term disproportionate may be nonsense to you, but it is the description used by the International Aid, Humanitarian Agencies and leading world politicians, to describe the present Israeli governments actions.

You have a perfect right to disagree.

Your second point.

It is recognised by many that during WW2., Burma, Vietnam etc. that War Crimes were performed by all sides.

Although, I can understand the reasons for the obliteration of Dresden, I think it was a war crime and a crime against humanity.

Although, I can understand the reasons for Hiroshima nuclear bomb (by the civilised world) , I think it was a war crime and a crime against humanity.

I won't list any more.

It was lucky that the RIGHT SIDE won. We must have had God on OUR Side.

I only hope that none of our families are in the same helpless position of some of those groups of people who were there through no fault of their own.

In an attempt to get your point across perhaps you could try underline and italics as well Fred? Bold alone doesn't seem to be working.

PS
I have edited this.

PS. If my grandson fires at me with his peashooter, what should I do?

Take it off him.

Break one of his arms or legs.

Knock him down and break his bed and tell him to sleep on the floor in future.

I hope not.

Hopefully, I would sit down with him and tell him that he might have hurt me.

Then I hope, I would ask him if he intended to hurt me, and if so why.

I would also listen to the reasons given and see if we can negotiate a better method of dealing with one another so we could both be happy again.


I would possibly warn him that, if he beats me at chess one more time, I may not be as tolerant.

Wasn't shouting Fred. Said before i'm an uneducated fellow, always thorght someones name began with a capital letter. You live and learn. Any way like you've already stated this thread was started to debate the current conflict in the middle east not WW2.

They tried all of that Fred (talking , reasoning , etc) ... it didn't work.

Haystack, Agree with much of your posting. But burglars carry guns and get their shots in first.
Not sure how many innocent knife carrying victims of knife crime there are in this country for the last two years.

Dil, If its not working, try something different.

Fred imagine instead of your grandson firing peas it is your neighbour firing his shotgun into your garden and almost hitting you and your grandson. You go around to "tell him that he might have hurt you and ask him if that is what he intended and if that is really what he wanted". He head butts you, tells you to f'ck off and says he will only stop shooting once you leave because he doesn't like living next you and wants your garden for himself. You go back home and after a while the shooting starts again except he is now having a go at your front driveway as well. You now can't go out without fear of getting shot and you dare not have your grandson around to play. How many times do you keep going back for that polite conversation before doing something a little more "proportionate"?

Isaacs, Tried what you suggested, doesn't look as good!

That's what they are doing Fred.

Dil,
Do you mean Murdering more than 300 children in GAZA. collapsing the infrastructure and turning their backs on the United Nations? Ignoring World opinion?

How long will they continue to do so and what future is Israel stoking up for itself?

Yeah Fred, right. If they hadn't gone in they'd have no trouble with Hamas ever again?

Turn it round Fred and ask the instigators of this conflict Hamas what they thought they were up to firing rockets on a civilian population and what they expected to get out of it ?