Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Bit long winded but interesting perspective on the "Free Gaza Movement"....

David Harris Executive Director, AJC, and Senior Associate, St. Antony's College, Oxford University Posted: June 6, 2010 08:14 AM

To the Free Gaza Movement :-

According to your website, you describe yourselves as a "human rights movement."

You proclaim: "We respect the human rights of everyone, regardless of race, tribe, religion, ethnicity, nationality, citizenship or language."

And yet nowhere is there evidence of your respect for the human rights of Israelis, who've been the targets of massive human rights violations by Hamas and other terror groups operating freely in Gaza.

Are human rights indivisible, or only permitted for the groups you preselect?

Actually, you answer that question at a deeper level when you assert that: "We recognize the right of all Palestinian refugees and exiles and their heirs to return to their homes in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.... This is an individual and not a collective right, and cannot be negotiated except by the individual."

In other words, not only do Israelis, who want nothing more than to live free of missile and mortar attacks from Gaza, have no such right, but the country in which they live has no right to exist. That's precisely what your formula means.

So much for being a "human rights movement" and respecting "the human rights of everyone."

Clearly, if it's not about pointing the finger at Israel -- or, should I say, giving Israel the finger -- then you're simply not interested.

When Egypt occupied Gaza until 1967 and imposed draconian military rule, where were you to protest and organize flotillas and "humanitarian convoys"?

When in 2005 Israel left Gaza to determine its own destiny -- for the first time in its history, I might add -- where were you to encourage investment and job creation?

When Hamas violently ousted the Palestinian Authority from Gaza in 2007, where were you to express support for the PA?

When Hamas opted to follow a dead-end strategy to turn Gaza into a pariah state and terrorist redoubt, where were you to press for a truly "free Gaza"?

When Christians were attacked in Gaza by jihadists, where were you to demonstrate solidarity with the victims?

When Egypt sealed its border with Gaza and, later, announced the construction of a steel wall along the frontier, where were you?

And when officials today live lavishly in Gaza and humanitarian supplies are siphoned off to privileged groups and gangs, where are you?

No, it's only about Israel. Nothing else matters. Your agenda is obvious. Your motives are transparent. And surrounding yourselves with a few convenient Jews doesn't make you any more credible.

But if you still want to persuade the world that you're a "human rights movement," here's an idea.

June 12th is the first anniversary of the rigged Iranian elections.

Here's what one human rights group had to say on Iran: "Iran's latest presidential election on June 12, 2009, took place against a backdrop of discrimination, worsening repression of dissent and violent unrest. Amnesty International continues to document serious human rights violations, including detention of human rights defenders and other prisoners of conscience, unfair trials, torture and mistreatment in detention, deaths in custody and the application of the death penalty. Iran has one of the highest number of recorded executions of any country in the world.... Furthermore, Iran executes more people than any other country in the world except for China. Iran is also the only country in the world that continues to execute juvenile offenders."

Moreover, the group reported: "Iran is now witnessing sweeping restrictions on the use of communications technology, including telecommunications, satellite broadcasts and internet access, a ban on peaceful demonstrations, armed attacks on students in university premises, as well as the arbitrary arrest of political activists, students, journalists, and human rights defenders, many -- if not all -- of whom are prisoners of conscience."

There will be a global day of action on June 12th demanding an end to human rights abuses in Iran. You're missing from the sponsoring groups. How could that be? After all, you define yourselves as a "human rights movement."

Surely, the fact that human rights defenders in Iran -- your presumed compatriots -- are in jail should mobilize you, not to mention state-sanctioned murder of minors.

Oops, I forgot. Israel isn't involved. That disqualifies Iran from consideration.

In fact, if you truly were a human rights movement, and based on your well-honed methods, you'd be organizing another flotilla as we speak.

You'd recruit your "activists" to be on board. You'd proclaim your solidarity with the dissidents, the prisoners of conscience, and those on death row. And, come what may, you'd head for the Iranian coast. Luckily for you, you'd discover that Iran has 1100 miles of shoreline along the Persian (or is it Arabian?) Gulf and the Gulf of Oman.

Actually, you've got another option as well -- logistically easier and cheaper to boot.

Lo and behold, Turkey shares a 310-mile land border with Iran. Given your cozy ties with the Turkish government and Turkish "humanitarian" groups (who, by the way, could use some education about Gandhi before being deployed again), why not plan to cross the frontier in convoys loaded with supplies for Iran's human rights activists? And don't forget to bring the signs to unfurl in front of the media you'll invite: "Free Iran," "End human rights oppression in Iran," "Women deserve equality," "Gays have rights," "Stop capital punishment," "We remember Neda," "Ballots, not bullets," "No more torture," "Persecution of Baha'i must end."

But you don't give a hoot about the well-being of millions of Iranians, whose human rights are being massively violated. You wouldn't take a single day off from your relentless anti-Israel campaign to assist the Iranian people.

Why is it that a self-proclaimed "human rights movement" doesn't care about the fate of Iranians desperately in need of outside support? Why would you never think about taking your show on the road to Iran, whatever risks might await you? Why is that you and your Turkish friends wouldn't spend a moment on the subject?

Alas, the reason is obvious. Israel isn't involved. You can't pin the blame on Jerusalem. Those waiting for you on the border don't wear an Israeli uniform (and don't abide by the same strict code of military conduct, either).

So what does that make you?

Nothing more than a Hamas booster club seeking Israel's disappearance, while posing as a "human rights movement."

i wonder if phosgene has the same effect as N20 ..... it would be good if someone decided to experiment in that benighted region

Ideas for reverse flotillas gain steam By ABE SELIG 06/08/2010 04:01

Israeli groups mull sailing toward Turkey to "remind the world of Turkish hypocrisy."

Although most of the recent talk regarding flotillas has revolved around ships sailing toward Gaza, at least two plans have emerged for reverse flotillas from Israel toward Turkey to highlight what organizers have labeled the Turks shameless hypocrisy in their criticisms of the Jewish state.

The most ambitious of the two plans has been devised by members of Israels National Student Union, who this week announced their intention to set sail toward Turkey, in an effort to bring humanitarian aid to the oppressed people of Turkish Kurdistan and to members of the Turkish Armenian minority.

Student Union chairman Boaz Torporovsky, who has been leading the reverse flotilla charge, told The Jerusalem Post on Monday, Hundreds of people have volunteered for the flotilla, and many more are contacting us all the time for ways they can help.

Our plan is to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance to the Kurds of Turkey, who by the way outnumber Israelis and Palestinians combined, he said.

And to show that Turkey has its own issues when it comes to the treatment of its minorities, which they should consider before criticizing us.

Torporovsky added that the National Student Union members had two separate flotilla ideas, both of which they hoped to embark on soon. The first was a flotilla of private yachts that would head out to sea if additional Gaza-bound flotillas entered Israeli waters.

We would like to greet them at sea, he said. And explain to them, peacefully we dont want any violence what it is thats really going on here.

Wed like to show them the truth and help them understand that the reality here is not what theyve been told.

Torporovsky said that many yacht owners had already volunteered for that phase of the plan, and that he and his colleagues were preparing for the arrival of a number of Gaza-bound ships, of European or even Iranian origin.

The second phase of the National Student Union members flotilla plan would be the more ambitious journey to Turkey, though Torporovsky admitted they were hard-pressed when it came to funding it.

We need three things to pull this part off, he said.

Money, logistical support and balls and weve got the last two things covered.

But its here that we really get into the shameless hypocrisy of the Turks, because while they criticize us day and night, they are oppressing the Kurds and silencing the world when it comes to recognition of the Armenian Genocide.

Torporovsky said his group had already found a captain for the vessel, a retired Israel Navy sailor, but the ship itself was proving harder to acquire.

Its not easy to find a large, sea-bound vessel, he said.

But were looking, and were raising funds, and as soon as were able to do it, we will.

But the reverse-flotilla talk hasnt stopped there.

Another sea-bound venture is being organized in an effort to draw attention to Turkeys own controversial policies this time to Cyprus, to call for an end to the Turkish occupation of the islands northern half and is being organized by Meretz activist Pinchas Har-Zahav, and his son Haim, who has also signed on for the voyage.

The group is also set to include Alex Goldfarb, who was an MK with the Tzomet and Yiud parties from 1992 to 1996, and is being subsidized by an unnamed wealthy Israeli.

Speaking to the Post on Monday, Haim Har-Zahav said the goal of the voyage was to remind the world that Turkey is not innocent.

If Uruguay or Iceland were the ones criticizing us so harshly, it might be a different story, he said. But were talking about a country that only seven years after [the Six Day War and the beginning of Israeli control of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank] began occupying Cyprus.

Were talking about a country that has systematically killed the Kurds and refuses to acknowledge their role in the Armenian Genocide, he said.

And so no, we will not accept this. The hypocrisy has to stop here.

Har-Zahav added that the ships passengers were not looking for a violent confrontation and if told to turn back, they would.

But we feel that its important for us to show and remind the world that Turkey is not a righteous country, but a near-rogue state, and that we, the Israeli people, are not suckers.

i am afraid the israeli people are suckers for allowing that appalling gov't to use the palestinians as political pawns .... and of course hamas and hezbollah are doing likewise ...... lower than a snake's belly is too generous a description of those vermin - ordinary israelis and paletinians excused, though only just, for they allow themselves to be mercilesly manipulated

Some might say we are mercilesly manipulated as well......Fred's mates with their dodgy dossiers for example. Come to think of it lower than a snake's belly is a good description of many in the last government.

Of course Hamas are attacking Israel as it is occupying Palestinian land illegally. what do you expect them to do. The state of Israel has no legal legitimacy. Even the UN resolution 181 in 1947 was only a recommendation which depended on Israel and the Arabs agreeing to it. The Arabs did not agree. France initially refused to vote in its favour unless Israel promised to send large numbers of Jewish refugees back to their home countries. Israel agreed to this and France voted for the resolution. Of course Israel renegged on the deal.

Hamas don't want to kill all the Jews in Israel. they want to remove Israel as an entity. They want the Jews who live there to be Jews in an Arab Palestine, which is what it really is. Hamas will never give up on this. when Israel were trying to oust the British from Palestine they claimed to be freedom fighters and not terrorists. Of course at the time the Israelis were terrorists as they had no claim to the land. Hamas are freedom fighters now and not terrorists because they do have a claim to the land.

Israel's stategy of trying to crush Gaza is counter productive. Hamas would probably win a landslide in an election there now. they have also set their sights on increasing influence in the West Bank. The West Bank may be doing better economically, but they are still under the heel of Israel and they are getting nowhere regarding a solution. You will see Hamas getting stronger over the next year or so.

Isaacs,

I condemned the actions of the UK and America in pursuing an illegal war with Iraq.

Also at the time I thought the "dodgy dossier" claims were laughable and bogus.

The Tory cons. were in favour of the "war" and they were stupid then, as many remain so.

I also condemned many Policies and Action of the previous government, but you are to bigoted to understand my criticisms when I did so.

What irritates me about both cons. and Labours parties, is that they allow themselves to be bought, and have funds donated to the Labour and Conservative coffers through the Friends of Israel groups. I think that this is a disgrace to British politics and as corrupting as the "expenses" scams.


I am not a member of any party, but am interested in have been interested in politics for over 55 years and believe in developing harmony in society, rather than conflicts. I think this present government has the potential to be the most divisive for forty years or so.

I think David Cameron's talk of the greater society and social responsibility is humbug.

It appals me, that at this moment, this country's present government is run by two ex-PR agents.


I think the present government is showing itself to be a walking hypocrisy and at the moment, I think its released economic policies will increase the fragmentation in this country's society, with all its consequences.

Its International Policies appear vacuous to me, but time will tell.

========

As I have written before, I cannot see it feasible to dismantle the State of Israel, but I think it to be a natural right of all the inhabitants of that area to have "equal rights" in all aspects of that society. It will eventually occur. I hope that there isn't another holocaust before it happens.

Otherwise I agree with much of Hay's postings and views.

=====================

I have difficulty with the term Jews.

The term confuses me, and I would prefer to use the term Israeli and consider Jews not to be a racial or nationalistic group, but as belonging to groups who believe in, or adherents, to various Jewish Religions.

===============

Perhaps, if race and religion was left outside the negotiating rooms for a while, an ongoing solution may be found.

The relationship between Jews and Israel is an important one as the vast majority of the inhabitants are not genetically Jewish. Certainly the German and Eastern European Jewish people are descendants of the Khazar Kingdom who converted to Juaism about 1,000 years ago. They spoke a language which they called Yiddish and they adopted the Hebrew alphabet, but were not ethnic Jews. They called themselves Yiddish. There is no Yiddish in Ancient Hebrew and no Ancient Hebrew in Yiddish.

Israel is only interested in expansion. That is why they expel Paliestinians from their farms and land and build illegal settlements on occupied territory.

Haystack: "Genetically Jewish"?????? That's got to be the most revealing and unenlightened post I've ever seen you make.

Judaism is not a species or a race. It's a religion. There is no such thing as 'Genetically Jewish'. Jews don't really have special genes that promote nasal cartilage growth. There's no special place on their double helix that causes large bank accounts. Their DNA is not predisposed to horns on their foreheads. That stuff is racist uneducated nonsense from two centuries ago. And it was only bigoted idiots that believed it then. I thought you knew this? Yet you use the term 'Genetically Jewish'. What a f*ckwit you can be sometimes!

What are you on?

Funny that, but many Jewish people and large numbers of Jewish leaders do not regard someone as Jewish if their mother was not Jewish. That is certainly the case with the more orthodox members. There was even a court case a few months ago where a Jewish child was refused admission to JFS (the Jewish Free School in London) because his mother wasn't Jewish. That effectively means that at some point these people would have had to have a non Jewish mother.

It is not discredited nonsense. It is written about and accepted even by Jewish historians. I could give you a few few names. I am not sure where the bank account bit came from as it was you who mentioned it.

One of the arguments about Jewish immigration to Israel and their rights to the land is that is is a historic homeland and there are unbroken links back to that land. This is not the case. If you are maintaining that they have the right to settle there purely because of religion and not due to ethnicity then that is even more tenuous than the false ethnic argument.

edit

Ruling by Britains's Supreme Court in December last year.

In a five-to-four decision the top judges ruled that the school (Britains oldest and largest Jewish school), illegally refused places to pupils it did not consider ethnically Jewish, by applying the strictest interpretations of Halacha (Jewish Law) which considers only the child of an Orthodox Jewish women to be Jewish.

Did you note the use of the phrase 'ethnically Jewish'?

Haystack - I think you're confusing ethnicity with genetics.

Well in this case it amounts to the same thing. If you cannot be Jewish if your mother was not Jewish then that is a genetic link. It is very interesting to see various Rabbis pronouncements on the subject. It seems quite commonly held that Judaism is both a race and a religion. How can my comments about genetic Jewishness be racist if even Jewish Rabbis are saying the same thing. It is also not racist as I have not attached any detremental comments to being Jewish by race or religion.

ethnicity and genetics amount to the same thing? Clearly you have confused them.

It seems quite commonly held that Judaism is both a race and a religion. - only amongst racists.

On post 2719: you cannot be jewish if your mother was not jewish

On post 2715: German and Eastern European jews chose to become jewish en-masse (ie their mothers were not jewish).

Which is it to be haystack? Your two pompous declarations are mutually exclusive. You can keep one if you want to, but you also have to declare the other as bollocks.

The German and Eastern European Jews are desceendants of the asians Khazars who converted to Judaism by edict from their ruler at the time. If it is accepted that you cannot be Jewish if your mother isn't Jewish then these peopel are not genetic Jews (ie descending from the original inhabitants of Israel who were expelled in the first century BC).

Rabbi Ari Enkin

I wish others would ask and explore the question you raise!

While the full answer is exhaustive - the short answer is: The Jews are both a race and religion.

Our religion is quite clear -- see your nearest Biible.
...

And, Lord Justice Sedley added, "it appears clear to us that Jews constitute a racial group defined principally by ethnic origin and additionally by conversion". .

"To discriminate against a person on the grounds that he or someone else either is or is not Jewish is therefore to discriminate against him on racial grounds."

So if you are saying that the inhabitants of Israel have no genetic link back to ancient Israel and are not a race anyway, why do they have any right to occupy any of the land that belongs to the Palistinians and call it Israel? A religion has no right take other peole's land.

No haystack, I'm not saying that. You are.

Of course a religion has no right to take a land.

The bit I'm struggling with is your questioning of Israel's right to exist and your refusal to accept that a legally constituted and democratic country (regardless of how it came to be) has every right to exist in peace and without constant bombardment from its neighbours. And that when subject to such constant bombardment that country has every right to defend itself by war, occupation, economic means, sanctions, political negotiation and any other legal means at its disposal.

Although the problem is complex to solve, it seems simple enough to describe. It's not a question of ethnicity, occupation, religion or race. Nor any of the other things you throw in to muddy the waters. It's certainly not a question of genetics. And as for your latest rant about khazers - that's just utterly irrational. Akin to saying there should not be any islamic democracies because Mohammed was only born about 1400 years ago, or Christian democracies because Christianity is only 2000 years old. Again - nonsense. It misses the whole point of democracy.

Isaacs , are you posting from Israel ?

Has he been conscripted?

Has he been conscripted?

what, twice?