Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

I can't believe you sometimes Haystack , you put up endless polls showing this, that and the other , then say " I wish the polls actually meant much ."

H/T to gain across the road..




Revenge of the betrayed: Abandoned by the metropolitan political elite, their lives utterly changed by mass migration, Labour's northern heartlands could swing it for Brexit


By ROBERT HARDMAN FOR THE DAILY MAIL

PUBLISHED: 00:46, 11 June 2016 | UPDATED: 06:36, 11 June 2016



Wendy McDonald is worried that the referendum is stirring up what she calls ‘the r-word’.

As the daughter of a man who sailed to Britain on the Empire Windrush — the ship that brought the first postwar immigrants from the Caribbean in 1948 — any prospect of racial tensions appals her.

But you won’t hear Wendy blaming Nigel Farage or Boris Johnson or others in the Brexit campaign. In her opinion, the culprit is obvious: the European Union and the Remain brigade. ‘It’s the EU that breeds this resentment,’ she tells me. ‘I’m afraid it is creating racism. The sooner we’re out of it, the better.’

Having worked in social housing in the Greater Manchester area for 20 years, Wendy says she knows only too well how community cohesion is eroded when, for example, a family from Eastern Europe gets given a terrace house by the council ahead of a local lad who is left to ‘sleep outside Asda’ night after night.

‘That’s not a racist issue for me. It’s a simple question of how we are supposed to carry on letting in more and more people if we can’t house them all.’
It is a view shared by huge numbers of voters just like Wendy who live here in a part of Britain which many believe is fast driving this country towards the EU exit — the Labour heartlands of the North.

These are people who don’t just feel patronised. When it comes to their concerns about Europe, they feel disenfranchised. For there is no other part of the country where you find voters quite so divorced from the people elected to represent them on this key issue.

Yesterday, former Labour leader Ed Miliband gave a perfect illustration of the chasm between the parliamentary party and so many of its ordinary supporters. Speaking on Radio 4, he refused to acknowledge a link between immigration and public services, insisting: ‘I don’t believe it’s immigration causing the problems in the NHS. I believe it is Jeremy Hunt [the Health Secretary] and David Cameron.’
And let’s not forget that Jeremy Corbyn has been criticised for blocking any mention of immigration in Labour’s referendum leaflet.

Out in the real world, meanwhile, the other EU referendum debate continues. It is a debate among people who aren’t listening to the views of the CBI or international panjandrums such as Christine Lagarde of the IMF or the Governor of the Bank of England, and who didn’t watch the latest two-hour TV debate because they had better things to do, like trying to find a GP.

It is a debate among millions of working-class people who don’t care what political party leaders have to say because, in their view, Westminster long ago forfeited their trust

They see an ivory-towered elite telling them that the debate should be about the economy and not immigration — on pain of being labelled ‘racist’, as Labour frontbencher Pat Glass called an entire Derbyshire village the other day — when the voters themselves regard these key issues as one and the same thing.

And they certainly don’t see themselves as anti-immigrant.

That is hardly surprising. For here is a crucial point: many of them are from immigrant families themselves.

It’s enough to make a Hampstead liberal weep. But therein lies the problem.
After years of chattering among their own ilk around the scrubbed pine dinner tables of North London, the metropolitan grandees of the Labour Party have simply ignored the grumbles of their tiresome provincial supporters on one of the key issues of our age.

Only now are they are starting to realise their mistake. As former Labour Cabinet minister Andy Burnham put it this week: ‘We have definitely been far too much Hampstead and not enough Hull in recent times and we need to change that.’ But is it too late?


Two famously outspoken Labour MPs, Dennis Skinner and John Mann, clearly think so because, yesterday, both finally announced that they were declaring for Brexit.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636164/Revenge-betrayed-Abandoned-metropolitan-political-elite-lives-utterly-changed-mass-migration-Labour-s-northern-heartlands-swing-Brexit.html#ixzz4BFXTRm00

And your'e a fake are you not Freda , all your'e worried about is the Markets , last week you were bleating about the odds for Remain and loving it .How fickle are you by the way , make light of anyone who differs from you . Such a disappointing man .

Vicky and Manuel,

The market movement is a just a reflection of possible expectancies.

But little Cynic is more interesting in disparaging anybody who holds different opinion.

A perfect little tory sycophant.

More tosh Freda , Oh wad the power , the gift he give us , to see ourselves as others see us , Robbie Burns , roughly .

Freda you have been a pain in the arse for years on this thread. It floats your left wing sinking boat. You ooze hypocrisy, remind us of your last stock purchase wasn't it a bank?

The world is going to end ... for the troughers :-)


http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/10/new-brexit-poll-shows-brits-leaning-toward-leaving-hits-markets.html

This week you might be forgiven for thinking that a well-known political dynasty was all that stood between Britain and disaster. You simply could not escape them, or their alarmist rhetoric. If we vote to leave the EU, they argue, we will have chosen ‘devastation and destruction’ The Mail.
Of course the dynasty is the successor to Rhodri the Great, King of Gwynedd, the magnificent Kinnock family. It has the same commitment to the average working family as a turkey farmer to his turkeys - to make a lot of money.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3636143/Greediest-snouts-EU-trough-Not-sure-vote-Read-stinking-wealth-hypocrisy-Brussels-fat-cats-Kinnocks-help-decide.html

I remember the Governor of Bank of England predicting a "Technical " recession.
What is a Technical recession - 2 quarters of recession.

Surely we should not be afraid of 6 more months of problems after we get out and can be expected - this is scaremongering for sure.

What we need to guess is what will happen in say the next 2 - 10 years, not the next 6 months.
Lets get out while we can, then watch the rest of the EU fall to pieces within the next couple of years. Economically - they need us more than we need them.
So do not be afraid of change but embrace it of UK to progress.

Also I can not understand why Nicola Sturgen is leader of Scottish parliament when Scots voted to stay in UK and she still wants Scots out - why should anyone now listen to her nonsense ? Yes, she can usually shout the loudest.

The government is now not allowed to use the machinery of state to
push their pro-eu agenda since 'Purdah' started last week.

But don't think that's it for pro-eu reports to be brandished at the public
in a scaremongering manner.

Just a couple of days before the referendum the IMF are to release an
update on the worlds economic state, but in all probability it'l be mostly on
the effect of a LEAVE vote, with the IMF throwing everything it can from the
doomsday book of scaremongering and fear.

Christine Largarde the pro-eu, ex French finance minister, now in charge at
the IMF will in her inimitable gallic manner tell us all of the forthcoming of
disaster, and plagues of locust to descend on us if we have the temerity
to vote LEAVE....

UP YOURS MADAM LARGARDE!!

Across the pond.

www.cnbc.com/2016/06/09/brexit-actually-makes-economic-sense.html

fred - we all know you're a total arsehole, but do at least try to report accurately .....

i have consistently written that there are many good arguments for staying in and likewise for exiting, so to write "little Cynic is more interesting in disparaging anybody who holds different opinion" is a total and typical untruth

to then write further that i am "a perfect little tory sycophant" is another nonsense, and in any case completely irrelevant to the current discussion
were that to have any factuality, i would presumably be a member of the conservative party (i am not) and also a supporter of cameron (remain camp) which i also am not

A trip down memory lane..




'We'll quit EU over migrants' David Cameron gets tough but UKIP say its too late

DAVID Cameron warned the European Union yesterday Britain was going to give it “one last go” to reform immigration rules or the UK would vote to leave.



By Owen Bennett

PUBLISHED: 05:43, Fri, Oct 17, 2014



Mr Cameron admitted “it’s not going to be easy” to renegotiate freedom of movement laws imposed by Brussels, but warned the rest of the EU it could lose one of the continent’s strongest powers if it did not give ground.




http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/523417/European-Union-powers-David-Cameron-immigration-policy

Think the don't knows must be getting off the fence and jumping Brexit way.

Remain campaign has become more desperate last couple of days , think it's squeaky bum time for Cammy and the scaremongers.

Who does this remind me of?

You live a bit in an Ivory Tower Freda don't you , banging on and on daily from your vantage point looking down on all and sundry , with your flaky responses to situations put to you . All in a days entertainment .

David Cameron says state pensions could be at risk if Brexit becomes reality



Exclusive: Prime minister claims protected NHS cash may have to go as he cautions voters on possible consequences of voting to leave



Honest dave spells it out



David Cameron has warned that pledges to raise state pensions every year and ringfence spending for the NHS may have to be ditched in a brutal new phase of austerity if the country votes for Brexit.


With Downing Street increasingly anxious about levels of support for leaving the EU, particularly among Labour voters, the prime minister says people need to focus on the “cold reality” of what Brexit would mean to their everyday lives and what they value most.

In an exclusive interview with the Observer, with only 12 days to go until the crucial referendum vote, Cameron insists he is not trying to scare people but is focusing on the reality of what life would be like outside the EU and the world’s largest trading market.

He says the so-called “triple lock” that guarantees annual increases in state pensions, ringfenced spending on the NHS, free TV licences and bus passes for pensioners, as well as defence spending would all be under threat.



The prime minister argues that a “black hole” in the public finances – predicted by the Institute for Fiscal Studies by 2020 in the event of Brexit – would threaten the very services that people cherish and rely on most.



More: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/11/brexit-axe-state-pensions-david-cameron-nhs-cold-reality

Vicky.

P2887,

I thought that role belong to you and that Moneyam's sophisticated little bit of rough. Manuel.

(Who, perhaps, should read his own past posts.)

More scare tactics. It won't affect the foreign hand-out, the crazy gang enshrined that in law, or their pay and pensions, but god help those that have contributed all their lives and have come out with very little to show for it. Clearly aimed at those more likely to vote out. Clown hasn't realised yet that threatening people just makes them more stubborn.
I wonder who pays the fabulous EU pensions of the likes of the Kinnocks and Mandelson after we leave.

IT,

If you are so capable why didn't you apply for Mandelson's or Kinnock's jobs?