Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

cynic,
It's no good putting it in too sophisticated terms for parrot et al :)

Yes, there should be a homeland for Palestinians and most Israelis accept that.
I have no objection whatsoever to there being a 23rd Muslim state in the region as long as there is one "Jewish" state where Jews can live happily with the existing one million plus Arab Israelis......and in peace with its Palestinian neighbour.

In an ideal world there should be no need of a Jewish, Muslim or Christian state per se and religion and all its baggage confined to history, but you have to live in the realpolitick world as it is and make the best of it; perhaps work step by step towards a better world free of the hatreds and delegitimisation and demonisations of parrot, freddie boy, clubbie, fahel and their ilk.

It is their intolerance and hatreds which create the problems in the first place.

ITLOTB
This is not ancient history or even the history at the time of the colonisation by the British. This is the disenfranchisement and the theft of the land of people who are alive NOW. This is people's land and homes who are living as refugees right now. there is a solution, but not one that Israel would like. Their land is still being illegally taken on a daily basis by Israel. This is not some artifact of history that you might read about in a history book. This is Israel indulging in ethnic cleasing now.

Israel is NOT existing due to some collective wish for a Jewish homeland. It is there bevause of a Zionist movement started in the 1800s. This movement has retstated many times their intention to cleanse the area of Arabs by violent means to gain the territory.

No good addressing me, Goebbels the parrot.
Your outrageous lies as in 3629 put you beyond normal communication.
Any comment I make in the future is for normal people to read, (or even fred), if they so wish.
You can wallow in your Straussian obsessional psychosis, (of which you demonstrate classical symptoms), as you are well beyond help.

hayseed ...you spout your usual load of unthinking and unthought claptrap ... try reading, learning and thinking for yourself, though i concur with others, that this may well be beyond your will or even capability

itlob ... how doe one dispel blind prejudice and the horrors it brings in its wake?

cynic,
I wish I knew. Parrot is so filled with hate and lies, as are three others, it seems totally hopeless to me. You can't communicate with hard core liars and those who wilfully refuse to be objective, even to the point of trying to make a virtue out of prejudice and hatred.
In the end you can only fight them, which is why I started my posts here in an abrasive style. I understood what I was dealing with when I first read their posts.
When someone wishes to attack on spurious grounds then you have to do battle and those who say discuss and they will see reason are being decent and reasonable, but naive.
Think of it in terms of war with the Nazis. Unpleasant but forced upon the decent people of the world.

Just more abuse and no logic. What lies are there in the above post? I think you will find it difficult to list any of them let alone several.

Cynic,

I think you are entitled hold to you own opinion of your contributions.

Although, I disagree on many other topics with Haystack, I feel his postings on this thread are usually pertinent, thought out or reasoned and informative.

Personally, I think until all members of the present "Israel" have equality of civil and human rights the problems in that area will continue.

I dont think Israel can be deconstructed and the necessary enfranchisement of all living in that area will eventually occur.

It would be preferably to accept this earlier than later, and for it occurred with less violence not more murder.

However, I cannot see any peaceful resolution without Hamas being involved, as they represent a large proportion of the disenfranchised in that area.

The continuing abuse by some Zionists and stealing of land etc. would be one of the first steps to defusing the situation.

fred- for once i actually agree with nearly all of what you write ..... my objection to virtually all H writes is that he is a bigot, and i think that definition is pretty accurate

Fred
It is odd that I am portrayed as filled with hate. I have never once indicated that I hate Israel or its people. I think the government of Israel is one of the worst in the world and does appaling things quite deliberately. I say one of the worst before someone produces a list that is even worse. I would like Israel to share all of their territory with the Palestinians. The conflict is because of Israel's unusualy constitution in that it is the only country created by and for one religion.

An Al-Quds Day Letter to Tony Blair
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/141330.html

By Lauren Booth
Sunday, 5 September 2010

Dear Tony,

Congratulations on your political memoir becoming an instant bestseller. Im in
Iran and have the only copy in the country. I can tell you, its so fiercely
fought over, its worth its weight in WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction). Note
to Random House; have A Journey translated into Farsi and Arabic asap, itll
fly off the shelves in this part of the world.

Tony, yesterday I went the Al Quds day protest in Tehran. You may have heard
of it? Its the rally where Iranians gather to protest against Israels
illegal occupation of Palestine, including the Holy city of Jerusalem.

Im being sarcastic by asking if youve heard of Al Quds day, because I know
you have. It is after all your very worst nightmare right? It must be
horrifying with the world view, you express in your memoirs to watch scenes
on the BBC news showing the precise meeting point of politics and Islam.

Personally Ive never understood this fear of political Islam it seems to me
that religious people should always be educated on world events rather than
kept in ignorance like say, Mid-West Christian Zionists in the USA who cant
even find their home city on a map of their state.

Anyway, yesterday, I stood in the midst of more than one million Iranian
Muslims all chanting in unison Marg Bar Isre-hell! and Marg Bar Am-ri-ca!
You know what that means Tony Im sure ; Down with Israel, down with
America. The men, women and children around me withstood a day of no water and
no food (its called Ramadan, Tony, its a fast). Coping with hunger and
thirst in the hundred degrees heat, as if it were nothing. They can withstand
deprivation in the Muslim world, and think it a proud thing to suffer in order
to express their fury at the continued slaughter of Palestinians. To protest
the theft of what little remains of Palestinian land by settlers. To protest
the blockade of Gaza causing immense suffering to millions.

Now, the Christian Zionists in the USA and the Jewish Zionists in Israel would
have you believe that I was am in danger in Iran, especially on a day like Al
Quds. Well here again Tony, youve been fed and have consumed in its entirety,
a massive lie. The lie that says that when Muslims march they march against
infidels (like me I suppose) in some kind of Middle Eastern homage to the
ancient crusades.

Yet the crusade Tony is yours, not theirs.

Today I spoke with many women on the Tehran protest. One mother who wept, not
out of hatred for the West but out of empathy for the mothers of Rafah, Khan
Younis, Nablus and Jenin. Do you recognise these place names Tony, as Middle
East peace envoy you really should. Israel has massacred children in all of
these cities in recent years. Didnt you know?

Anyway the women I met were gentle, frustrated by the refusal of the
international community to stop the arrests of Palestinian children, to stop
the routine bombing of the tunnels (the main access still for food and
essential items in the Gaza strip). We embraced in the streets of Tehran like
sisters. Not in Islam Tony, but in the fight against your brand of extremism
and prejudice.

And today when the streets of London reverberate with cries of Allahuakbar!
and Down Down Israel. Christians and Jews will join the thunderous cries of
Down Down Israel, marching against the political Muslims you say you fear so
much, That you would have me fear too if you could.

Having spent a good deal of time in Palestine in recent years, certainly more
than you and your the peace envoy supposedly. It repulsed me to read your
blatant swallowing of the Israeli narrative regarding Palestine and its people.

The conflict between Palestine and Israel is according to you all about
religion and has nothing at all to do with the ethnic cleansing of the Arab
population, nor the degradation of those who remain by their Israeli occupiers.
You say that Arabs have and always will see Jews as enemies. For Gods sake
Tony do your history. And if youre going to run a Faith Foundation then
better gen up on Islam 101 dont you think? Did your pals in Tel Aviv forget
to tell you how many thousands of Jews lived in Historic Palestine in harmony
with their Arab neighbours before 1948? Do you really not know that even today
tens of thousands of Jews reside contentedly in Iran?

Ive sat with dozens and dozens of Muslim families, those whose children have
been burned by Israeli/USA phosphorous bombs. Those who are still suffering
hunger due to the Israel siege of Gaza. Those who have lived through the early
days of sanctions against Iran when they needed food vouchers just to live.
And every single Muslim in these suffering families has the same message ; We
dont hate anyone for their race or their religion. We cannot hate Jews they
are in our holy book it is against the teachings of the Quran. But Tony let
me ask you this. Why should any people Muslim or otherwise have NO right to
justice and NO right to challenge an evil being done to them and their
children? Or to those who share a set of common beliefs? Do you have no
understanding of what it is like to live in Gaza? Under siege, attacked with
chemical weapons, your childrens schools razed to the ground by Israeli
missiles, your hospitals shelled, your electricity limited, your water
undrinkable?

Or do understand the idea of the hardships suffered by millions in the Middle
East as a direct result of your support for Israel and just think they deserve
it?

In your book you say you knew full well how many Beirut homes were flattened,
how many civilians died in Lebanon in 2006. Yet you dismiss Lebanese rage
about Israeli land theft of Shebas Farm as being an irrelevance, about a
tiny amount of land. You cannot see it as part of an attack on Lebanese life
as a whole, by its heavily armed aggressive neighbour. You see it as: Israel
is attacked. Israel strikes back. As if Israel lives in placid peace, being
kindly to all around it in between these massacres.

As other world leaders came out to demand Israel immediately cease its 2006
bombing raids on Lebanese cities, you stayed silent.

If I had condemned Israel you say I would have been more than dishonest. It
would have undermined my world view.

Your world view that Muslims are mad, bad, dangerous to know. A contagion to
be contained. Your final chapter is a must read here in the Middle East Tony,
congratulations! For it lays out the them and us agenda of your friends in
Washington and Tel Aviv and in David Milliband, the ambassador of Zionism that
he is.

In the final chapter you say; we need a religious counter attack against
Islam. And by Islam you mean the Al Quds rallies, the Palestinian intifada
(based on an anti Apartheid struggle Tony, NOT religious bigotry), against
every Arab who fails to raise a flag as the F16s rain on their homes and
refugee camps and breaks out singing Imagine all the people

When you say extremism must be controlled and beaten you mean the message
of solidarity shared by Non Muslims alike on the streets of London and across
the world today, joining the Al-Quds day protests.

Not only extremism must be defeated you say but the narrative that has to be
assailed.

Iran is indeed the place where Islamic tradition meets political action.

But Im not afraid here Tony. The people are kind, friendly, full of good
humour.

They are also highly aware of the history of this region, the wrongs
perpetrated by Israel against Palestine and the political machinations of the
USA and the UK governments.

And as your book remains highly sought after here in Tehran. Its that and not
Islam, that you and your Israeli chums should be afraid of because it reveals
you in all your ignorant glory.


Lauren Booth is a broadcaster and journalist. She is also Tony Blairs sister
in law.

Song banned in the USA, a very Beautiful song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYJgZEB1H1A

Seems like a one sided rant to me

That's because the people supporting the other side of the argument never provide any evidence to support their case. I know it must be difficult to justify the Israeli actions, but you would of thought that they could produce something even if it was the flimsiest of excuses.

so, i am afraid, are 90%+ posts on this thread

Morning Haystack, Given that the "other side" never provide evidence to support their case, do we suppose that the rant contained in post 3638 was designed to prompt a reaction in terms of an opposing rant, is that what this thread is about?

In post 3624 you suggest that control is given back to the Palestinians knowing that they are in turn controlled by Hamas with their stated solution for Israel how do you see this as leading to a peaceful outcome? I agree the egg was broken wrongly decades ago but you cannot put the yoke back into the shell. To find the correct solution is difficult even if both sides want it. But foolish simplistic arguements make the whole thing impossible rather than difficult.

Hamas's solution is to share the land with the Israelis under Palestinians control. Hamas is only opposed to the state of Israel and its actions gainst Palestine, not the people of Israel.

i.e. Israel becomes Palestine which is the same as saying Hamas oppose even the existence of Israel - which of course we already know

Of course. That is what Hamas and most of the Palestinians want. They want their land back to govern themselves. Tens of thousands of Jews lived in Palestine quite peacefully in that envirnoment prior to the state of Israel.

The current talks do not represent Palestinians. They are being conducted on the Palestinian side by someone who's mandate ran out several years ago as leader of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was an interim body and its mandate has also run out. The June elections in the West Bank were cancelled by Abbas for fear of the Palestinians showing what they really thought of him and Fatah.

Israel won't stop settlement building and this alone could stop the talks very soon. Even if an an agreement was reached in the talks, the Palestinians won't accpet it. Hamas will rise up again and there will be a bloody conflict. Abbas will be thrown out together with Fatah and Hamas will become the dominant force in Gaza and the West Bank. It is not possible to have talks without Hamas.

The European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza says it will launch Freedom Flotilla II next month, as international demands to end the four-year Israeli siege against a million and a half Palestinians are on the rise.

The campaigns official spokesman Anwar al-Gharbi said the second flotilla is being staged by the same organizers of its predecessor under the European Campaigns supervision.

The new flotilla is set to deliver prefabricated homes to Palestinians living in tents pitched on the ruins of their homes destroyed in the last Israeli war, in addition to medical supplies and other humanitarian aid.

In a related development, Idir Dimertis has announced that he is coordinating another Gaza aid convoy from Switzerland.

Dozens of Swiss non-government organizations, artists, MPs, and more will participate in the convoy, Dimertis, who is coordinating the Swiss convoy, said.

A number of Swiss citizens have inquired about how to participate in the convoy, he added.

If Americans knew what Israel is doing..??
(Video was censored)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA