Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Seems like a one sided rant to me

That's because the people supporting the other side of the argument never provide any evidence to support their case. I know it must be difficult to justify the Israeli actions, but you would of thought that they could produce something even if it was the flimsiest of excuses.

so, i am afraid, are 90%+ posts on this thread

Morning Haystack, Given that the "other side" never provide evidence to support their case, do we suppose that the rant contained in post 3638 was designed to prompt a reaction in terms of an opposing rant, is that what this thread is about?

In post 3624 you suggest that control is given back to the Palestinians knowing that they are in turn controlled by Hamas with their stated solution for Israel how do you see this as leading to a peaceful outcome? I agree the egg was broken wrongly decades ago but you cannot put the yoke back into the shell. To find the correct solution is difficult even if both sides want it. But foolish simplistic arguements make the whole thing impossible rather than difficult.

Hamas's solution is to share the land with the Israelis under Palestinians control. Hamas is only opposed to the state of Israel and its actions gainst Palestine, not the people of Israel.

i.e. Israel becomes Palestine which is the same as saying Hamas oppose even the existence of Israel - which of course we already know

Of course. That is what Hamas and most of the Palestinians want. They want their land back to govern themselves. Tens of thousands of Jews lived in Palestine quite peacefully in that envirnoment prior to the state of Israel.

The current talks do not represent Palestinians. They are being conducted on the Palestinian side by someone who's mandate ran out several years ago as leader of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was an interim body and its mandate has also run out. The June elections in the West Bank were cancelled by Abbas for fear of the Palestinians showing what they really thought of him and Fatah.

Israel won't stop settlement building and this alone could stop the talks very soon. Even if an an agreement was reached in the talks, the Palestinians won't accpet it. Hamas will rise up again and there will be a bloody conflict. Abbas will be thrown out together with Fatah and Hamas will become the dominant force in Gaza and the West Bank. It is not possible to have talks without Hamas.

The European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza says it will launch Freedom Flotilla II next month, as international demands to end the four-year Israeli siege against a million and a half Palestinians are on the rise.

The campaigns official spokesman Anwar al-Gharbi said the second flotilla is being staged by the same organizers of its predecessor under the European Campaigns supervision.

The new flotilla is set to deliver prefabricated homes to Palestinians living in tents pitched on the ruins of their homes destroyed in the last Israeli war, in addition to medical supplies and other humanitarian aid.

In a related development, Idir Dimertis has announced that he is coordinating another Gaza aid convoy from Switzerland.

Dozens of Swiss non-government organizations, artists, MPs, and more will participate in the convoy, Dimertis, who is coordinating the Swiss convoy, said.

A number of Swiss citizens have inquired about how to participate in the convoy, he added.

If Americans knew what Israel is doing..??
(Video was censored)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

Its a "Trick" we always use it...
(Calling People "Anti Semitic...")
Click here....V V V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUGVPBO9_cA

AIPAC is pushing US to war with Iran
For Israel...................

Click here...V V V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nch43wy8Zb8

Hays,

You could have a state called the United States of Israel and Palestine?

with movement to representational government base on "individuals rights".

Idealistic, but perhaps feasible.

Best of luck for a while.

I am waiting for the boat from Dover to France.

Hope the arguments out there are a little better informed, less fixed in the past and hopefully, less personal and a little pleasanter.

Regards to all.

22 September 2010 Last updated at 08:18

Palestinian shot by guard in Silwan settler clash

A Palestinian man has been shot dead by a security guard in the East Jerusalem area of Silwan, during a clash between Israeli settlers and Palestinians.

Clashes are common in Silwan, where Israeli officials plan to raze 22 Palestinian homes for a tourist park.

The UN has called the plan illegal and "unhelpful" to peace efforts.

The death comes a day after the Middle East Quartet urged Israel to extend its partial freeze on the construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

.

Substantial update to story

What are the implications for future flotillas heading for Gaza very soon?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11393836

Israeli raid on Gaza aid flotilla broke law - UN probe

Israel's military broke international laws during a raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla, a UN Human Rights Council investigation says.

Its report said the action by commandoes, which left nine dead, was "disproportionate" and "betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality".

It said there was clear evidence to support prosecutions against Israel for "wilful killing".

Israel insists its soldiers acted in self-defence during the 31 May raid.

Nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists were killed and many others injured after Israeli commandoes boarded the six-ship convoy as it tried to breach an Israeli naval blockade of Gaza.

The convoy's passengers were detained and later deported by Israel.

There was widespread international criticism of Israel's actions, which severely strained relations with its long-time Muslim ally, Turkey.

In a 56-page report, the UN panel of three international judges said: "There is clear evidence to support prosecutions of the following crimes within the terms of article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: wilful killing; torture or inhuman treatment; wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health".

The Convention is an international treaty governing the protection of civilians in times of war.

The UN fact-finding mission also said the Israeli blockade of the Palestinian territory was "unlawful" because of a humanitarian crisis there.

The panel had interviewed more than 100 witnesses in Britain, Jordan, Switzerland Turkey, but not in Israel.

Just before the report was released, Israel dismissed the Human Rights Council as being biased, politicised and extremist.

Israel also said that work on its own independent inquiry into the raid on the Mavi Mamara ship was still continuing.

The Israeli investigation has two foreign observers, but critics say its remit is too narrow.

Last month, the head of Israel's military, Lt Gen Gabi Ashkenazi, defended its troops' use of live ammunition during the raid. He told the Israeli inquiry that the soldiers had underestimated the threat and should have used more force to subdue activists before boarding.

Those aboard the Mavi Marmara, where the activists were killed, say the commandos opened fire as soon as they boarded the vessel, which was in international waters at the time.

There is also a separate UN enquiry - ordered by UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon - into the raid.

There are also accusation of torture by the Israeli forces in the UN report.

The actual UN report

Report of the international fact-finding mission to investigate violations of international law, including international umanitarian and human rights law, resulting from the Israeli attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian
assistance

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

163. Insofar as the Israeli interception of the flotilla was unlawfuland the Mission considers that it was unlawfulthe use of force by the Israeli forces in seizing control of the Mavi Marmara and other vessels was also prima facie unlawful since there was no legal basis for the Israeli forces to conduct an assault and interception in international waters.

170. The circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution.

176. The mass detention of more than 700 passengers and crew on board the six vessels had no basis in law, was arbitrary in nature and is a violation of Article 9 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

203. Some passengers in the passport checking area saw an older passenger being roughly treated after receiving what appeared to be a beating. When other passengers, including Irish and Turkish, protested at this treatment, they were charged by soldiers using batons. In the foray, around 30 passengers were beaten to the ground, kicked and punched in a sustained attack by soldiers. One Irish passenger was seen being particularly badly beaten around the head and held in a choke position to the point of near suffocation. He identified his attackers as police officers. He was taken to a holding cell.

208. There were other incidents of isolated violence against individual passengers who were deemed to be uncooperative. One passenger was seen having his arm twisted behind his back by police to the point that the arm broke. Another was kicked and hit by some ten soldiers, handcuffed and taken by vehicle to another place 10-15 minutes away, where soldiers abused him for up to two hours. When he returned to the airport, he was bleeding from the head.

265. The Mission considers that several violations and offences have been committed. It is not satisfied that, in the time available, it can say that it has been able to compile a comprehensive list of all offences. However, there is clear evidence to support prosecutions of the following crimes within the terms of article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
wilful killing;
torture or inhuman treatment;
wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health.

The Mission also considers that a series of violations of Israels obligations under
international human rights law have taken place, including:
right to life (article 6, ICCPR);
torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment (article 7,
ICCPR; CAT);
right to liberty and security of the person and freedom from arbitrary arrest or
detention (article 9, ICCPR);
right of detainees to be treated with humanity and respect for the inherent dignity of
the human person (article 10, ICCPR);
freedom of expression (article 19, ICCPR).

Haystack the zionists are used to getting away with this with Palestinians....it was one step too far and it was inevitable that they will be held accountable for lack of respect for life.

24 September 2010 Last updated at 14:08

Gaza fisherman 'killed by Israeli navy'
By Jon Donnison BBC News, Gaza City

Fishermen in Gaza. 21 Sept 2010 Fishermen in Gaza complain that the area within the 5km zone is fished out

A fisherman has been shot and killed by the Israeli navy off the northern coast of the Gaza Strip, doctors in the territory say.

Israeli officials say the boat had strayed beyond the limit to which Palestinians are allowed to fish under the Israeli blockade.

must have been someone masquerading as St Peter's brother .... the dishdash was the giveaway

King abdullah II interview, On The Daily Show

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/exclusive---king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan-extended-interview