Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

No.

The point is that you continue to apply double standards.

You condemn Israel for a proposal that isn't even policy, yet you refuse to condemn the PA for a mirror image policy which they have made law. Worse still, you are blind to the irony in your seeking to justify the PA law.

People reading this will be laughing at you Haystack. You're making yourself look very foolish. Take a deep breath, have a think, condemn the PA unreservedly for this law, and change your position to a defensible one on this solitary point if you want to be taken even slightly seriously.

In fact I do condemn the PA for almost everything that they do. They are collaborators with Israel and the US. They have no proper basis to exist as they were an interim body and their tenure finished several years ago. As I have said above Palesinians trading with Isralis are collaborators and should be dealt with as such. The death penalty is absurd, but there should be severe penalties. At the end of the day Israel is occupying someone else's land and should expect to be treated in that way. Arabs in israel are no different from French people in England. Israelis in the West Bank are an occupying army.

ROFLMAO

several things .... H (and others) should read the whole article in Telegraph (no doubt elsewhere too) about schools/arabic, jews/palestinians renting, jews/palestinians dating - lots of local jewish condemnation therein ..... i confess that i don't read most posts on here because they are so hopelessly verbose and blinkered and biased, usually starting from faulty/debatable premise, but i don't recollect seeing H mentioning said condemnation - but perhaps i'm wrong and H did indeed post a balanced comment, exceedingly unlikely as that may be.

now for a different question or two ....

exactly who are the palestinians?
i was under the impression that they are just an amorphous bunch of mixed arab tribes, but perhaps i'm wrong

why does H (and others) rabbit on about "the land known (worldwide) as israel" being palestinian land?
as far as i can see, it is just on the basis that this mysterious "they" and their progeny/ancestors have lived there for a couple of centuries - but of course so have many jews for far far longer.

=======

and before H goes off on his usual ranting tangent, my views on israel's aggressive and continued expansion into the west bank and its treatment of the truly indigenous arab population are already well-posted

The Palestinians are the people who lived in Palestine before Israel took the land. Even in the Balfour decleration the Palestine is mentioned -"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people". Therefore this was Palestine even before the 1917 Balfour Decleration. There were more than 1 million inhabitants displaced by Israel living in Palestine. It matters not whether they were mixed tribes of Arabs. You could well say that England is a mixed tribe of people. The real point is that these refugees were living there before they were forced out of thier homes and off their land for the benefit of Israel.

Even the UN General Assembly Resolution 181
(Partition Plan)
November 29, 1947

refers to

Palestinian citizens three times
Palestinian citizensship once
and
Palestinian peoples once


The Population of Palestine 1947 was 1,845,000

It comprised of 1,237,000 non Jewish
and
608,000 Jewish

approximately 67% to 33%

The intention was for two states in the partition plan. The Arab state never came into existence. The proposed land distribution was to be 56.47% to a Jewish state and 43.53% to an Arab state with Jerusalem excluded and to be run by the UN. In fact before the plan came into effect the Zionist militants had driven off 300,000 Arabs from their land to be seized by Israel. From the actual partition in 1948 Israel has steadily taken more and more land. Jordan did not want a Palestinian state and had a secret agreement with Israel to let them capture the West Bank. They held it until 1967 when Israel took it back. Israel now controls almost all of the land west of the Jordan river. In pratice it means that Israel has around 95% of all the land. This is from a situation where they started with just 33% of the population.

i knew it was rash to ask a question of H .... all he can do is ramble and ramble and ramble and c+p from somewhere else and not answer the questions asked ..... would someone sensible like to have a crack at my fairly simple questions?

I recall reading somewhere that Palestine land was mostly that now known as Jordan or Syria, what is now israel represents but a small part. No doubt an enlightened soul (that won't be haystack) can offer guidance.

i think you may be thinking of the map of how the whole m/e was carved up after 1st World War, between Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon and Palestine (now Israel) ...... I'll try to find the web page for you and post on here .... the descriptives as to what was deemed (felt to be) jewish and arab land (in the loosest term) is interesting ..... much or even all were initially "protectorates", either under french or british jurisdiction - i think that's all correct

"In fact I do condemn the PA for almost everything that they do. They are collaborators with Israel and the US. They have no proper basis to exist as they were an interim body and their tenure finished several years ago. As I have said above Palesinians trading with Isralis are collaborators and should be dealt with as such. The death penalty is absurd, but there should be severe penalties"

So sayeth Mein Fuhrer Heil Adolf Parrot.

This thing has unlimited depths of venom now turned on the Palestinian Authority.
Isn't his pathological hatred of Israel and Jews enough to assuage his hunger?

His words are straight out of the mouths of Hamas.

With so much hatred and highly selective condemnation in his being, I can imagine how utterly insufferable and dominating he must be with his unfortunate family - if he's got one.
Of course, that nice man, Herr Hitler, had Eva Braun. He also liked dogs. Especially Alsatians ripping living Jews apart. Yes, you can see why Herr Hayes adores Herr Hitler.

Never mind, Greg, soon the armies of Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran will wipe out every living Jew in Israel, and for good measure the Palestinian Authority and all who support it.
And all thanks to you, Herr Hayes.

Cynic,

Go back a little further.

enlighten us ...... it's just something i came across the other day by chance ..... of course those "bits of land" have existed for several million years, but how they were "apportioned" by say 1850/1900 (for sensible historical convenience) i have no idea off- hand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Southern_Levant

The history of that region doesn't tell you very much.

The imprtant part is that by 1947 it was a mixed population of Arabs and Jews.

The Population of Palestine 1947 was 1,845,000

1,237,000 non Jewish
and
608,000 Jewish

approximately 67% to 33%

Israel has stolen almost all of the land that was previously shared.

very annoying; can't find "yesterday's map" which described certain post-WW1 protectorates as "arab" - i think they were syria and iraq - and "jewish" - israel/palestine

i think we all tend to forget on this highly polemical thread, that the whole of M/E has been regularly invaded and occupied often for centuries by assorted "empires" ..... it follows that it is a total nonsense for some to insist that what the world currently knows and recognises as "israel" is "land belonging to the palestinian race" .... it never has been, and indeed the so-called "palestinian race" are, as i suspected, just an amorphous collection of assorted arab-speaking "tribes" from a number of areas.

and before H and other idiots start ranting, the above in no way contradicts my oft-posted views of the current despicable behaviour of the israeli government etc etc ..... the above was primarily posted for historical interest, and i hope with at lesst acceptable accuracy - it is certainly non-partisan!

It has nothing to do with which coutries were the rulers at various times or which parts were attached to which empires. It is to do with the fact that there were 1.3 million Arabs who were living in the area before Israel displaced them. That is the whole problem. It doesn't matter if you call them palestinians or some other name. They want their land back and won't rest until they get it. No amount of opression will change their minds. It is not a problem that Israel can solve with force of arms. Israel can only look forward to a future where its security is constantly threatened until they give back substantial tyracts of land and property. That is apart from returning Jerusalem, which both groups regard as their capital.

.

Cynic,

You should know your own history. 8-)

Not sure when ME history starts and what is relevant.



When I read and try to understand the history of that area, I become confused by the detail and the relevance of the detail. (Glad, I wasnt a historian as, sometimes, I find my own history difficult enough to explain.)

I must admit, that when I started this thread, I was thinking of the abuses by all sides in the Middle East conflicts and hoped that drawing attention to them, may, in some minute way, enlightened and perhaps, moderate seemingly fixed opinions.

Only, when I started to read about the history of this area, did I understand the complexities of achieving a lasting negotiated settlement.

I think Hays is suggesting, that the settlement should be based on what is defined as the rights of all, in the area at the present time.

That would mean the "necessities" of all the people presently within that area, but would exclude the pressure from the various "religious fundamentalist" groups in that area. (But would allow those groups equitable rights.

=============

Just re-read out of interest:-

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People
Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998
http://www.science.co.il/israel-history.asp

Interesting summary, but not sure of its accuracy. (What is historical accuracy?)

H - oh why don't you just bugger off to hyde park corner and get on a soap-box there ..... you should be able to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam there without anyone really noticing .... every post you write (or c+p) is just polemical claptrap ..... this totally devalues anything you put up and only serves to enhance your image on this BB of being a total pratt

FRED - unfortunately not .... H rants like paisley and adams which indicates he is incapable of any balanced thought process

Cynic - Haystack's only really been like this since Ashley James died. Maybe H has aspirations to take on AJ's old mantle? He sounds more and more like AJ with each new post.