Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

very annoying; can't find "yesterday's map" which described certain post-WW1 protectorates as "arab" - i think they were syria and iraq - and "jewish" - israel/palestine

i think we all tend to forget on this highly polemical thread, that the whole of M/E has been regularly invaded and occupied often for centuries by assorted "empires" ..... it follows that it is a total nonsense for some to insist that what the world currently knows and recognises as "israel" is "land belonging to the palestinian race" .... it never has been, and indeed the so-called "palestinian race" are, as i suspected, just an amorphous collection of assorted arab-speaking "tribes" from a number of areas.

and before H and other idiots start ranting, the above in no way contradicts my oft-posted views of the current despicable behaviour of the israeli government etc etc ..... the above was primarily posted for historical interest, and i hope with at lesst acceptable accuracy - it is certainly non-partisan!

It has nothing to do with which coutries were the rulers at various times or which parts were attached to which empires. It is to do with the fact that there were 1.3 million Arabs who were living in the area before Israel displaced them. That is the whole problem. It doesn't matter if you call them palestinians or some other name. They want their land back and won't rest until they get it. No amount of opression will change their minds. It is not a problem that Israel can solve with force of arms. Israel can only look forward to a future where its security is constantly threatened until they give back substantial tyracts of land and property. That is apart from returning Jerusalem, which both groups regard as their capital.

.

Cynic,

You should know your own history. 8-)

Not sure when ME history starts and what is relevant.



When I read and try to understand the history of that area, I become confused by the detail and the relevance of the detail. (Glad, I wasnt a historian as, sometimes, I find my own history difficult enough to explain.)

I must admit, that when I started this thread, I was thinking of the abuses by all sides in the Middle East conflicts and hoped that drawing attention to them, may, in some minute way, enlightened and perhaps, moderate seemingly fixed opinions.

Only, when I started to read about the history of this area, did I understand the complexities of achieving a lasting negotiated settlement.

I think Hays is suggesting, that the settlement should be based on what is defined as the rights of all, in the area at the present time.

That would mean the "necessities" of all the people presently within that area, but would exclude the pressure from the various "religious fundamentalist" groups in that area. (But would allow those groups equitable rights.

=============

Just re-read out of interest:-

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People
Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998
http://www.science.co.il/israel-history.asp

Interesting summary, but not sure of its accuracy. (What is historical accuracy?)

H - oh why don't you just bugger off to hyde park corner and get on a soap-box there ..... you should be able to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam there without anyone really noticing .... every post you write (or c+p) is just polemical claptrap ..... this totally devalues anything you put up and only serves to enhance your image on this BB of being a total pratt

FRED - unfortunately not .... H rants like paisley and adams which indicates he is incapable of any balanced thought process

Cynic - Haystack's only really been like this since Ashley James died. Maybe H has aspirations to take on AJ's old mantle? He sounds more and more like AJ with each new post.

Its not use calling my posts rants because you don't like the content. The ME problems come from Israel stealing land. Its that simple. Give back the land and stop expansionism and there will be peace.

The current peace process is just a device to appease the US and continue getting funds and arms. It is also a delaying tactic to settle as much of the West Bank as possible before world opinion turns aginst Israel even more. The aim is to settle everything west of the Jordan leaving 0% for the Palestinians apart from Gaza. The previous settlement freeze was nonsense as settlement was continuing at a fast face even then. The more settlement that happens then the more land there is to return. I don't think Iran will use a nuclear weapon it thad one. It might control Israel though.

H - your posts class as rants because you are incapable of posting without inflammatory language .... just for once, re-read your last post and re-write objectively without such rubbish as The current peace process is just a device to appease the US and continue getting funds and arms

Haystack - you don't think Iran would use a nuclear weapon?

Phew - I'll sleep easy now.

I'm much encouraged by your conclusion given that you demonstrate that you draw your conclusions without examining a jot evidence.

What probability do you assign to Iran not using nuclear weapons? And, in the best AJ tradition, please express the probability to three or four decimal places.

Cynic,


I can't see
"The current peace process is just a device to appease the US and continue getting funds and arms"

is inflammatory.

I think it a common view from outside the immediate area.

Besides, I feel the majority of Hays' C+Ps are factual, or as near as damn it, while many of your observations appear derogating to the person posting and not the content of various postings.

As far as Iran with a nuclear device, they have as much right to it as USA, Britain or Israel. As they have a right to their own oil and other "wealth".

I don't think they are likely to use it as a weapon, other than in "defence", but that may depend on the ways the winds blow.

As if on cue - today's Dry Bones cartoon.

Just received this video. Slightly amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=GkHNNPM7pJA

Nobody asked the 1.3 million Arabs living in Palestine if they would like to be thrown off their land and give it away to a new state called Israel. You should expect the reaction that Israel gets from the people who used to live there.

There is no comparison with penalties for selling land to Israelis and not renting to Arabs. The Arabs are not illegal occupiers of Israel, but the Israelis are illegal occupiers of the West Bank. People tarding with Israelis in the West Bank are collaborating with and aiding an enemy.

Haystack - 1.3 million? Where's that from?

And the west bank law concerns selling land to Jews - not israelis. I know you often confuse these two words, you're not anti-semitic just anti-israel and some of your best friends are jewish etc etc etc, but oops, you just let the mask slip again.

There were 1.3 Arabs and 600,000 Jews living in the area before the partition. In 1914 the Jewish population was about 8% and owned about 2% of the land and increased so that by 1947 the Jewish population was 33%.

Here is a breakdown of the Jewish/Palestinian populations by district in 1946.

http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/refugees/pdf/subdistrict.pdf

From the table below you can see the fall in Muslim inhabitants of Israel from 58% to 15%

Just Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel


Year Jews Muslims Muslim Percentage
1946 608.2 1,076.8 58.35%
1950 1,203.0 116.1 8.80%
1972 2,752.7 360.6 11.58%
1995 4,522.3 811.2 15.21%
2000 4,955.4 970.0 16.73%

Gausie
You are wrong, there is no mention of Jews. You are just paranoid as usual.

The law was first introduced by the Jordanians when they controlled the West Bank.

The law states this "Law for Preventing the Sale of Immoveable Property to the Enemy".

Under this statute, "the enemy" is defined as

... any man or judicial body [corporation] of Israeli citizenship living in Israel or acting on its behalf.[11]

The statute additionally states that anyone who sells land to an alien (non-Jordanian or non-Arab) without permission from the government will also be subject to the death penalty.

Later in 1997, the PA began drafting a new law to replace the Jordanian statute, known as the "Property Law for Foreigners". Under the provisions of this draft proposal, the sale of land to "occupiers" was described as an act of "national treason", with "occupiers" defined as the "government of occupation [ie Israel], its civilian and military institutions and its individual citizens".

Figures released today: -

The projected number of Palestinians in the world at the end of 2010 is 11 million.

The distribution of the Palestinians according to the report is as follows: 4.1 million Palestinians were in the 1967-occupied Palestinian territory (of which 2.5 million were in the West Bank and 1.6 million in Gaza), 1.4 million Palestinians in 1948-occupied Palestine, 5 million in Arab countries and 600 thousand in other countries.

The report also stated that 44% of Palestinians living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are refugees (18% in the West Bank and 26% in the Gaza Strip).

Don't you think it would be a good idea to close this thread next year ?

one doesn't have to post, and in normal times, i have rarely bothered to do so .... leave it to the ranting one