Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

i think you may be thinking of the map of how the whole m/e was carved up after 1st World War, between Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon and Palestine (now Israel) ...... I'll try to find the web page for you and post on here .... the descriptives as to what was deemed (felt to be) jewish and arab land (in the loosest term) is interesting ..... much or even all were initially "protectorates", either under french or british jurisdiction - i think that's all correct

"In fact I do condemn the PA for almost everything that they do. They are collaborators with Israel and the US. They have no proper basis to exist as they were an interim body and their tenure finished several years ago. As I have said above Palesinians trading with Isralis are collaborators and should be dealt with as such. The death penalty is absurd, but there should be severe penalties"

So sayeth Mein Fuhrer Heil Adolf Parrot.

This thing has unlimited depths of venom now turned on the Palestinian Authority.
Isn't his pathological hatred of Israel and Jews enough to assuage his hunger?

His words are straight out of the mouths of Hamas.

With so much hatred and highly selective condemnation in his being, I can imagine how utterly insufferable and dominating he must be with his unfortunate family - if he's got one.
Of course, that nice man, Herr Hitler, had Eva Braun. He also liked dogs. Especially Alsatians ripping living Jews apart. Yes, you can see why Herr Hayes adores Herr Hitler.

Never mind, Greg, soon the armies of Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran will wipe out every living Jew in Israel, and for good measure the Palestinian Authority and all who support it.
And all thanks to you, Herr Hayes.

Cynic,

Go back a little further.

enlighten us ...... it's just something i came across the other day by chance ..... of course those "bits of land" have existed for several million years, but how they were "apportioned" by say 1850/1900 (for sensible historical convenience) i have no idea off- hand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Southern_Levant

The history of that region doesn't tell you very much.

The imprtant part is that by 1947 it was a mixed population of Arabs and Jews.

The Population of Palestine 1947 was 1,845,000

1,237,000 non Jewish
and
608,000 Jewish

approximately 67% to 33%

Israel has stolen almost all of the land that was previously shared.

very annoying; can't find "yesterday's map" which described certain post-WW1 protectorates as "arab" - i think they were syria and iraq - and "jewish" - israel/palestine

i think we all tend to forget on this highly polemical thread, that the whole of M/E has been regularly invaded and occupied often for centuries by assorted "empires" ..... it follows that it is a total nonsense for some to insist that what the world currently knows and recognises as "israel" is "land belonging to the palestinian race" .... it never has been, and indeed the so-called "palestinian race" are, as i suspected, just an amorphous collection of assorted arab-speaking "tribes" from a number of areas.

and before H and other idiots start ranting, the above in no way contradicts my oft-posted views of the current despicable behaviour of the israeli government etc etc ..... the above was primarily posted for historical interest, and i hope with at lesst acceptable accuracy - it is certainly non-partisan!

It has nothing to do with which coutries were the rulers at various times or which parts were attached to which empires. It is to do with the fact that there were 1.3 million Arabs who were living in the area before Israel displaced them. That is the whole problem. It doesn't matter if you call them palestinians or some other name. They want their land back and won't rest until they get it. No amount of opression will change their minds. It is not a problem that Israel can solve with force of arms. Israel can only look forward to a future where its security is constantly threatened until they give back substantial tyracts of land and property. That is apart from returning Jerusalem, which both groups regard as their capital.

.

Cynic,

You should know your own history. 8-)

Not sure when ME history starts and what is relevant.



When I read and try to understand the history of that area, I become confused by the detail and the relevance of the detail. (Glad, I wasnt a historian as, sometimes, I find my own history difficult enough to explain.)

I must admit, that when I started this thread, I was thinking of the abuses by all sides in the Middle East conflicts and hoped that drawing attention to them, may, in some minute way, enlightened and perhaps, moderate seemingly fixed opinions.

Only, when I started to read about the history of this area, did I understand the complexities of achieving a lasting negotiated settlement.

I think Hays is suggesting, that the settlement should be based on what is defined as the rights of all, in the area at the present time.

That would mean the "necessities" of all the people presently within that area, but would exclude the pressure from the various "religious fundamentalist" groups in that area. (But would allow those groups equitable rights.

=============

Just re-read out of interest:-

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People
Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998
http://www.science.co.il/israel-history.asp

Interesting summary, but not sure of its accuracy. (What is historical accuracy?)

H - oh why don't you just bugger off to hyde park corner and get on a soap-box there ..... you should be able to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam there without anyone really noticing .... every post you write (or c+p) is just polemical claptrap ..... this totally devalues anything you put up and only serves to enhance your image on this BB of being a total pratt

FRED - unfortunately not .... H rants like paisley and adams which indicates he is incapable of any balanced thought process

Cynic - Haystack's only really been like this since Ashley James died. Maybe H has aspirations to take on AJ's old mantle? He sounds more and more like AJ with each new post.

Its not use calling my posts rants because you don't like the content. The ME problems come from Israel stealing land. Its that simple. Give back the land and stop expansionism and there will be peace.

The current peace process is just a device to appease the US and continue getting funds and arms. It is also a delaying tactic to settle as much of the West Bank as possible before world opinion turns aginst Israel even more. The aim is to settle everything west of the Jordan leaving 0% for the Palestinians apart from Gaza. The previous settlement freeze was nonsense as settlement was continuing at a fast face even then. The more settlement that happens then the more land there is to return. I don't think Iran will use a nuclear weapon it thad one. It might control Israel though.

H - your posts class as rants because you are incapable of posting without inflammatory language .... just for once, re-read your last post and re-write objectively without such rubbish as The current peace process is just a device to appease the US and continue getting funds and arms

Haystack - you don't think Iran would use a nuclear weapon?

Phew - I'll sleep easy now.

I'm much encouraged by your conclusion given that you demonstrate that you draw your conclusions without examining a jot evidence.

What probability do you assign to Iran not using nuclear weapons? And, in the best AJ tradition, please express the probability to three or four decimal places.

Cynic,


I can't see
"The current peace process is just a device to appease the US and continue getting funds and arms"

is inflammatory.

I think it a common view from outside the immediate area.

Besides, I feel the majority of Hays' C+Ps are factual, or as near as damn it, while many of your observations appear derogating to the person posting and not the content of various postings.

As far as Iran with a nuclear device, they have as much right to it as USA, Britain or Israel. As they have a right to their own oil and other "wealth".

I don't think they are likely to use it as a weapon, other than in "defence", but that may depend on the ways the winds blow.

As if on cue - today's Dry Bones cartoon.

Just received this video. Slightly amusing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=GkHNNPM7pJA

Nobody asked the 1.3 million Arabs living in Palestine if they would like to be thrown off their land and give it away to a new state called Israel. You should expect the reaction that Israel gets from the people who used to live there.

There is no comparison with penalties for selling land to Israelis and not renting to Arabs. The Arabs are not illegal occupiers of Israel, but the Israelis are illegal occupiers of the West Bank. People tarding with Israelis in the West Bank are collaborating with and aiding an enemy.